What Hospitality Leaders Stopped Talking About (And Why It Matters Now) - Anna Blue

Josiah: There are so many things changing right now in the world of hospitality, including how hotel companies are thinking about developing their people. So to provide an unfiltered look at it all, today we're joined by Anna Blue, an incredible leader in our industry that I've had on the show in the past. I'll link to that conversation in the show notes. She was most recently president of the American Hotel and Lodging Association Foundation. And in this conversation here today, we get into what she's seeing and hearing in the industry broadly right now. We cover DEI, women's empowerment programs, where it all goes wrong, and what hospitality leaders can practically do right now to drive positive change. Let's get into it. 

Josiah: Before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about we're in such an interesting moment where it feels like there's a lot of chaos. I think we saw each other at the Hunter Hotel Investment Conference from stage. I feel like this is what I was hearing, chaos, volatility, whatever you want to call it, a lot going on. We wanted to talk a little bit about things that maybe people are talking about behind closed doors and it needs to be a public conversation or they're not talking about. And maybe we should be talking about, we should be thinking about some stuff. I guess I know that's a very high level intro. I guess like just to get into the conversation, I wonder if, you know, kind of, I would love to just hear, you know, what are you seeing and hearing out there in the hospitality industry? We just came back from this conference. You talked to so many people. What are you seeing and hearing out there right now?

Anna: I think chaos is absolutely the right framing of all of it. There are a lot of people who are disappointed because they're not hearing what they want to hear from companies. I think there's a lot of trepidation. There's a lot of uncertainty. What can we say in a public forum? What makes sense? You have this sort of pull between employees and stakeholders, and then you have this pull of shareholders and publicly traded companies, and then you have the media and you have public. very public known brands, but then you have all of the smaller companies that people aren't as familiar with. And so you just have all of these perspectives. And I think that what's happening in the world is impacting a lot of people. And the industry has been largely quiet. It doesn't mean that they're not doing the right thing, but they have been largely quiet on a lot of things. And so I think there's just a lot of questions. I think there are more questions than answers right now, which is a hard place to be in. There's a lot of uncertainty and uncertainty is never, it's never good for anybody.

Josiah: I want to pick up on what you said about some of these companies being quiet. The point of this show is to inspire people, is to have conversations that are important and move us all forward. What happens when organizations go quiet, as you mentioned? Especially for those leaders of these organizations that are listening to this, why is being quiet dangerous?

Anna: Because people just don't know where you stand. It's hard to know where to put your time and talent if I work at any level for a company and I don't know where they stand on issues that impact me, on issues that impact my family or my community or any of those things, just issues that I care about. And it's hard, right? Because that could be said of anybody and we could be on opposite sides of issues that we care about. But it does create Uncertainty and uncertainty is hard. It's hard to show up every day. It's hard to give yourself when you are unclear. There is a lack of clarity and a lack of transparency. And when you talk to people about their company, when you talk to people about what brings them joy and what they love, and why cultures are so positive, oftentimes you hear the word transparency. It comes up so much and what that means. And so now when suddenly you work for a company that has always been clear and now they're being quiet, that's a challenge because where do you stand?

Josiah: Yeah. Well, I wonder if we could talk about some of these issues that you feel maybe were talked about in the past and have stopped getting airtime and maybe should be getting more attention. That's our opportunity here at the show, right? We can talk about anything. Can you give me some examples of things that are not being talked about now and should be?

Anna: So certainly I think the biggest one being talked about behind closed doors at all levels that's not being talked about publicly is certainly DEI. We had the executive order come out. There's a lot of just uncertainty about what that even means, right? Who's impacted, what it means for programs, what you end up seeing. And the backlash is not unexpected. You know, I've been doing this type of work for a very long time. And so this is very, this is cyclical. We've seen it over and over and maybe not in recent years or in recent decades to the level that we're seeing it right now. And so you sort of see, and we had a lot of conversations while I was still with the AHLA Foundation with a lot of different companies. And you get the companies that are saying, nope, we're going to continue what we're doing. We're just going to call it something different. And there are challenges within that as well, right? If you just start talking about culture and opportunity instead of you actually talking about what it is, then there are some people that have responses and reactions to that. But the work continues. The outcomes might be the same. And at the end of the day, that's what's important are the outcomes and that they're meaningful. Then you have companies that are using this as their opportunity to roll it on back to say, hey, these aren't programs that are working. They're not effective. We don't want to do this. We don't want the reaction. So we're going to pull these programs back. And then you have the response from people on that. And then you have the companies that are doubling down. They're saying, not only we're going to keep doing this, we're going to add or we're going to call it exactly what it is. These are our DEI initiatives. They are going to continue to be our DEI initiatives. This is part of the culture. And so you have sort of these internal conversations everywhere. And we've had, I've certainly had a number of them with various companies and And it's interesting to hear that sort of few levels down from the C-suite, what people are thinking and their opinion and who's being impacted by this. So DEI is certainly one where there's just a lot of upheaval and confusion. And that started a couple of months ago.

Josiah: Wait, this is interesting. How does the conversation change, you said, a few levels down from the C-suite? What's the disconnect? Is it different topics, different sentiments? What is that disconnect that you're seeing and hearing?

Anna: I think when you're not the decision maker, it's always easy to criticize the decision maker, right? Because it's not on your back. And so having been a decision maker, I certainly have felt that, right? It's so easy to have an opinion. And there's a reason that they say leadership is lonely, right? Because you, at the end of the day, this is being carried on your shoulders and you're hearing it from all sides. And I respect that that is a piece of this, right? Your employees absolutely matter and you value them and they are what keeps the trains running. And at the same time, you've got investors and shareholders or other people and you have the media and you have to forge a relationship with politicians in the administration because that is also important for business. And there are so many things that go into decision-making. But when you hear that sort of few levels down and people who are in the meetings but aren't necessarily making the decisions, I think that there's a lot of, you know, I don't want to say disgruntled employees, but yeah, I think people are concerned. They're concerned about meaningful programs and initiatives that they believe in being taken away. And it's concerning.

Josiah: Yeah. I also want to go back to one thing that you mentioned around some companies are continuing, others are cutting some of these programs. claiming that they're not working. Again, I want to leverage your sort of impartial opinion on this. Is your sense that they're actually not working or they're just this is an excuse to cut? What do you what do you hear going on?

Anna: What is really interesting, and you know I've been doing this work for a long time, is what we often see happen is people will remove programs, and we're seeing it now, that specifically are to create access and opportunity for people of color. They often double down on programs for women. And that is because programs for women don't work. They are relatively ineffective and is very much designed that way because programs for women typically focus on fixing women. And so if you believe, if you can put the onus on women, that you are the reason that you are not paid the same, that there are only 6% of hospitality or hotel CEOs that are women. But if you can put that on women and say, well, it's because you don't have the confidence, you don't know how to ask for more money, you have imposter syndrome, all of these things, you don't have enough mentor sponsors, you know, all of that. then you can create programs that make women feel good, but don't actually give access to decision making, to power, to influence, to money, to opportunity. And so that's something that you see a lot. And on the narrative for people of color, what we're seeing is this new, very dangerous narrative of you are either diverse or qualified. that there's no such thing anymore of being both. And that is a very dangerous thing, as we all know, and have worked with incredibly powerful and brilliant. I think some of my greatest teachers in life have been Black women. And, you know, and so this sort of narrative that we're creating that leaders are afraid to play into, because now you have a narrative that some of your employees believe or is working, right, because public media has that power. And so they're seeing people in the C-suite that now they're questioning. They're questioning whether that person belongs there. And so that narrative is floating around in your company. You're seeing a different response to promotions of people of color, people saying, oh, but we're not allowed to do that anymore. You're not allowed to promote people of color anymore. Like the narrative has gotten out of control and it is a very dangerous one.

Josiah: Tell me more about narrative because I think part of being a leader is not only engaging in the narrative, but shaping it, right? And leading the narrative. What would be your advice, I guess, specifically to that point for leaders? How can they not only engage, but steer the narrative in a positive direction?

Anna: One, I would caution against over-explaining, right? If you are in a position and you are releasing somebody's resume, but you didn't release the last white man's resume that you promoted, then there is an issue, right? Because it's showing that you have to justify why this person is in their position as if their career, their expertise, their own thought leadership doesn't justify that hire or that promotion. And so I would be mindful of accidentally sort of perpetuating this narrative by over explaining because then you are showing that it's okay to question that decision. So I would say treat it like you treat everything else and whatever the qualifications were, whatever it is that made you hire or promote that person, and that you would explain for anybody that you hired and promoted, like it should match. It should be the same and people should just be allowed to do their jobs. And I think if what you're running into is that sort of a few levels down or even further down of people having those conversations and that's getting back to the C-suite, then I think that you have to either engage experts and how to have these challenging conversations at a time like this. I've certainly done that multiple times in my career. Sometimes I don't, I am not the best person to explain something. And so I think that there is opportunity there, but I, you know, you have to lean into the fact that diverse teams are good for business. We see that that is what all of the data shows. There is no data that shows otherwise. And so if that's the reality, then whatever you would do, for any hire or promotion you make has to be consistent.

Josiah: I want to go back to your provocative statement that women's empowerment programs, quote unquote, don't work. In terms of, I guess, I'm trying to think how to frame this, but I'm thinking about some of the messages I've seen in some of those programs are around all the things that you mentioned, right? Where it's like, here's where you need to learn, here's where you need to do better. regardless of gender or any other kind of thing, I feel like there seems to be a time and a place to show people in hospitality, kind of here are the skills to learn. Obviously it feels a little strange if this is just focused on women or some other category. I guess my question for you would be, okay, that feels strange to just put that on women. How do you think about, I guess, inspiring, encouraging people to grow, to improve in general, and then specifically with women or people of color or underrepresented groups, what can leaders do to practically create opportunity, real opportunity, right? But maybe first on the learning and development, kind of like how should leaders think about that side of it?

Anna: Learning and development is important for everybody. To your point, this is not a gendered thing. Learning and development, I think people should always be learning and growing and have opportunities to do so within companies, whether it's the opportunity to shadow in other departments to see if there is something else that might be available as you think about the forward opportunities for your career. Are there certain skill sets that we're seeing that either younger generations aren't coming into the workplace with anymore that are still helpful? Are there actually skill sets that older generations don't have that young people are coming in with, right? So how do we start to even out some of that generational divide that very much exists in the workplace? I think there's a lot of opportunities to look at learning and development across the board and create highly functional programs that lift everybody. that make it like our accountability is what do I want to learn? How can I grow? What are the skills that I need? And then companies to then create those opportunities. The onus shouldn't be on me to say, okay, because I am specifically a woman or specifically a person of color, I have to learn how to do better as a person, as a professional, in order to be given those opportunities or to be in the room. So while other people's professional development is focused on skill development, ours tends to be focused on how to just show up better.

Josiah: Thanks for walking through that. I guess we'd love to hear your thoughts for leaders, your recommendations on what they could practically do to create real opportunity. I think you mentioned this at the beginning of our conversation, more than just signaling, more than just kind of like, this is trying to make us look good. What does it really look like to create real opportunity?

Anna: So the training has to be for the system, not the people, right? So the training has to be for decision makers. It has to be for your C-suite. It has to be for the leaders themselves. Training for people is great, but actually how to create opportunity, we do have to get rid of our own biases. We tend to, and this is across the board of human nature, when you look at how people make friends, when you look at all of those things, We tend to hire people who look like us, think like us, talk like us, act like us. That is just the reality, right? So if that is the way that everybody leans, then it is very important to make sure that the training sits on the people who are making those decisions. If that's something that's going to be happening in their brain, then how do they actually approach those opportunities differently? How do they look at the impact, the positive impact that diversity has on the bottom line and say, OK, we actually need people I need to, I need to hire somebody who thinks nothing like me. I need to hire somebody from a completely different background. I want somebody from the military, because that process and that training would be incredible in the boardroom. Like, really start to think and piece together, one, what diversity looks like and represents. What are the perspectives that are missing, instead of how can I get my perspective validated, right?

Josiah: Makes a lot of sense. I wonder, is there anything else, I guess, kind of with regards to people, it's a very broad question, but anything else like, you know, we're recording this early part of 2025, with regards to people in the hospitality industry, anything else kind of top of mind for you?

Anna: Here's what I'll say, and I love to repeat this. Early last year, so I was in my second, going into my second year in the industry, and I was meeting with a very, very senior person at one of the big brands. And he's a very well-known C-suite person, has been in hospitality forever. Good, good human being. And he said, you know, Anna, If the CEOs in our industry woke up every day and were reminded that they make their living on the backs of the working poor, we would be a completely different industry. And there is nothing that I have heard that has stayed with me more than that sentiment and that moment, right? Because we have this moment. of immigration and a lot of trepidation around that. And you think of, you know, I hear different statistics all the time of anywhere between sort of 25 and 35 percent of the people who work in our industry being immigrants. And so just whether you are documented or undocumented, the fear that exists right now, we very much heard from companies over the past couple of months that people are just not showing up at work. They're afraid. They're afraid for their families. They're afraid for themselves. And so, you know, there is an opportunity, I think, that the industry has right now to be on the right side of people. And whether that is leaning into the conversation, instead of leaning out, or it's to double down on programs that benefit human beings so that they stay in this industry. We need good people in this industry. We hear that all the time. And so I think that, you know, I am reminded of what he said quite often, and I do think there is a disconnect that is not recognized enough by the C-suite. There are so many wonderful C-suite leaders in this industry, truly, that get the people, but I think from this 30,000 foot view, and we need to change that.

Josiah: Could we talk specifically about immigration and some kind of practical things that leaders could do in that category? I know, you know, so in this environment, for the reasons that you described, what can people do to engage in this moment?

Anna: So here's where I'll say I'm a little bit out of my depth, because I haven't worked on immigration reform. It's not an issue that I've worked directly on. But I know that it's there, right? I've been in meetings with owners. I've been in meetings with management companies over the past six months, even during the election, as this was very much a topic of conversation. That concern about what this type of immigration reform will do to this industry is huge. And so But it's only in those rooms, right? It's just like DEA. It's only in those rooms that that is happening. And so why not, as an industry? We've done it on so many other things. We've done it on human trafficking. Why not, as an industry, come together and be a leader? Come together and say, we want to be at the table when immigration reform is being discussed, right? We want the right policy. We want immigration reform that makes sense, that is good for American business. Why isn't this industry at the table or or building the table right and bringing the right people together? We've seen it happen on other issues and I think that it is possible on this issue to be able to generate dialogue and so that would be I would say, stop hiding. You're having these conversations. You're having them in closed rooms. I've been in those rooms. So let's bring that out there. There are so many industries that are having this exact same conversation. We could be the leader. And we've done it before.

Josiah: I appreciate that. I appreciate you coming on the show to talk about this because I think this is how we move forward. And honestly, I would like to learn more about this. So I think anyone listening to us, point me in the direction of resources where I can learn more about this. I appreciate, Anna, what you shared. I think it's so important if you think about the workforces of most teams. I'm thinking back to that That quote or that thing that that executive mentioned with you on the backs of the working poor, that could include first generation immigrants, but it could just include anybody. It seems to cut across many different demographics. Is there any other element to that, I guess, like that environment or just that phrase of like the working poor? Yeah. How should leaders be thinking about that, that reality, engaging with serving those folks?

Anna: But what opportunities are we creating for, for people in hourly wage service positions, right? Who, what, you know, this is the land of opportunity in this industry in particular, right? When it comes to different career paths. But there again, you get back into the bias of who's being identified for promotions, who's being identified to kind of build that next step, or how many people are being tapped on the shoulder to say, hey, you'd be really good at marketing. I see you on the front desk. You have a way with words. You'd be great in marketing. And who are being given those opportunities? Because that is how we advance financially, is to be given more opportunities. When you have somebody who works 8, 10, 12 hours and then has to go deliver DoorDash or has to go drive Uber, you're signaling to them their value. And it's hard, and especially in cities where cost of living is absolutely astronomical and all of those things. I think what he was trying to say and what I take from that is if those are the people that we are really thinking about when we are thinking about opportunities, when we are thinking about programs, when we are thinking about how to keep good people and good talent in this industry, that's who we should be thinking about. It shouldn't be the people just a couple levels down from the C-suite. It should actually be the people who are breaking their backs for this industry because they love it, because they want to. And I think that that gets lost.

Josiah: Well, I think it does. And I think to help avoid it getting lost, I think leaders need to listen to what you've shared, not only talk about it, but build practical initiatives within their companies to create opportunities. I feel like there's so much opportunity, just broadly speaking, in the world of hospitality across so many areas. I think that's what I try to do on this show is talk about that. I encourage everybody to talk about it. We can all become evangelists for the opportunity that exists here. I think just to bring this point home, I like hearing how people personally think about it, and especially hospitality leaders like yourself. You've helped so many people enter the world of hospitality, create opportunities. It's different when it's your own family though, right? So my understanding is that your son is building a career in the world of hospitality. What did you share with him as he's thinking about what's ahead in his career, in his life? What did you share with him about the world of hospitality? I want to make this personal and bring it home.

Anna: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So from the time he was little, it was very, very clear that my son Ashton was going to go into sales of some kind. He was always a charmer, always a people person. And even as we started to talk about, you know, I learned early in my career, it's not like, oh, I want to do this job. It's like, what do I want my life to look like? What parts of myself do I want to bring to the table? And I've been giving that advice for a long time. Don't think about This is the job in this type of company. Think about how I want to be able to show up every day. What am I really good at? What strengths do I want to lean into?" And so for him it was like, okay, you're either going to go into sales or you're going to be a lobbyist. Like I live in D.C. so it's going to be one end or the other, right? Like you need to go convince people of things because you're good at it. And he started, he was actually with CoStar. And so he was doing inside sales and always looking at the people doing outside sales, the ones taking folks out to lunch. And he was like, I want to do that. And I will say that he is just his personality. You know, I didn't know that I was sort of putting him on this path for hospitality because I never thought about hospitality as a career. But then once you're in it and you're and it was like, oh, yes, like this is an industry made for for somebody like him. And because he's a people person, he wants to to be with people and he wants to build relationships and make meaningful connections and friendships and and do business through those relationships and friendships. And that is what hospitality is about. Right. It's about the people. And so He did a few informational interviews and things like that. And now he is on the development team at Synesta. And so he's traveling around and charming people. And that is exactly what he should be doing.

Josiah: I love that. Is there anything he shared about what it's like to enter the world of hospitality in that context? I always want to come back to the personal story. What has that been like for him?

Anna: He loves it. And it's so fulfilling as a parent, right, to see your child so happy. I mean, he truly, this is exactly how he thought of his life being. And now his goals are bigger and he's, you know, thinking, oh, I want to learn more about the brokerage side and I want to learn about the real estate side. And so he's seeing that there are all of these other opportunities that, of course, when we're growing up, we don't realize if you don't come from a hospitality family or background, you don't know all of the different careers that exist. And so now I've brought him, you know, with me to speak to students in hospitality programs and talk to them about what his day to day looks like, because his career is what they're thinking about. They're not thinking about mine. They're thinking about his right. And like what that next step looks like. And but yeah, it's awesome. He absolutely loves it. And I think he loves it partially because of what he's doing, certainly. But he loves it because He sees all the different directions that he could go and all of the opportunities that are available for him. And it's very cool to watch.