The Secrets of Modern Luxury Hospitality in London - Eugene Leonard, Hotel Cafe Royal

Josiah Mackenzie: Today on the show, our guest experience correspondent Danica Smith is hosting Eugene Leonard, general manager of the Hotel Cafe Royal in London, and together they explore what modern luxury can look like and how it can shape the way that you think about providing hospitality in your own context. Let's get into it. 

[intro]

Danica Smith: I'm really excited today because on our podcast, I think I have one of the most pristine GMs of London. His career spans far and wide, covering many of the top London properties. So I'm really excited to welcome Eugene Leonard, General Manager of the Hotel Café Royal, London's iconic five-star landmark hotel on Regent Street. With over two decades, probably more, we'll jump into that, in luxury hospitality, Eugene has led some of the world's most renowned hotels, including the Connacht and Claridges and at the Hotel Cafe Royale. Known for his people-first leadership and his obsession with guest excellence, he's built a reputation for creating teams that deliver effortless service and a genuine connection. Under his leadership, Cafe Royale has earned multiple awards for guest satisfaction, wellness, and service innovation, really cementing its place as one of London's most admired and iconic luxury hotels. Eugene's approach blends classic hospitality values with modern understanding of a brand, experience, and culture, really making him one of the industry's most respected voices on redefining luxury for today's travelers. So that's why I'm super excited. So let's get into it. Welcome, Eugene. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm very excited. When I was preparing the questions, I thought, wow, what better man to really jump into this. So thank you very much.

Eugene Leonard: My pleasure. Thank you for asking me to be here and for the very flattering welcome. You're making me blush.

Danica Smith: But it's true. I mean, when I just looked at your CV, I mean, it literally is one of the most iconic paths, isn't it? To lead to the very top, which we will get into. But I must say, Eugene, I'm a fan. Like I said, before we started recording, I've been following you on LinkedIn for a while, and I love your work.

Eugene Leonard: Thank you.

Danica Smith: So I would like to know, Eugene, what's the first thing you notice when you walk into your hotel, Hotel Cafe Royal, every morning?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, I think the first thing is the atmosphere, the energy. You can kind of tell, can't you, if it's this morning, it's actually half term week. So you walk in, there's a different atmosphere than there was yesterday, because yesterday there was business people around. And today there's not. Today there's families and kids and energy and flying croissants and, you know, it's a different, different energy, different atmosphere. And I think every day, no matter what time I kind of walk into the hotel, even if it's, if I've been ounced at something during the day and come back in in the evening, that energy is what I think draws people into hotels. It's the atmosphere, that love, the kind of, there's something in the air, I think, isn't there?

Danica Smith: Absolutely. And it's really difficult when you recruit new team members or expand to try and replicate that. So tell me, if you would just describe Café Royale to somebody who's never had the pleasure of stepping inside, what makes it unlike any other London five-star hotel?

Eugene Leonard: I think you can kind of put London hotels into two pots. I think there is the really classic heritage ones. You've got, you know, the Ritz Browns, the Lanesborough, the very, very quintessentially, right, the very quintessentially British ones. And then you have this kind of other pot which we definitely sit in that pot. We're a modern hotel, and you might think, what? It's 160 years old. It has an absolute, a huge amount of heritage, but the hotel very much sits at this intersection of heritage meets modernity. It's got an incredible history from what Café Royal was, and Café Royal is actually kind of in the third part of its It's in its third life, if you will. It started off 160 years ago as a restaurant, which became very popular and notorious with creative types, whether it was artists or writers or theater goers. Obviously, this part of town has always been synonymous with people like that. So it became quite notorious. And as the building that it was in got redeveloped and Regent Street got redeveloped by the incredible architect John Nash, Cafe royal then kind of moved into the second iteration of its of its life and it became not just a restaurant but then became this kind of large catering venue. And at one point i think was twenty one function rooms in the biggest one could sit up to seven hundred people and it was the home of all sorts of. different clubs and societies. Uh, the national sporting clubs home was here, the home of boxing. This was where the rules of boxing were created. And one of the functional rooms actually had a permanent boxing ring in it. The room was built to be, uh, the home of boxing, if you will. And then i think i fast forward into the early two thousands the world of events of probably change quite a lot and cafe royal at the time it's best days were behind it, i'm the hotel it was it was the building was closed the building next to it was acquired and cafe royal and the building next to it then were merged together under the. guidance of sir david chipper fields are kind of one of the leading architects of the world at the moment and if you will the kind of godfather of contemporary modernism so he took this building that had some heritage pieces to it but. Largely the pieces that didn't which is kind of ninety percent of the building. and made it feel very much a modern property. So it's got a lot of history and a lot of heritage, but it's a very modern building. And, you know, as a result of that, our guests are younger. You know, we've got 60% of our guests are under the age of 55. You know, so like by comparison, that other part I was saying of hotels, the very traditional British quintessential hotels, they probably have a different age demographic than what we do. So it's a very unique hotel like that. And it's also, I think, one of the other things that's very unique about it is the location. It's actually taken me working here to appreciate the location. And I kind of often say that it's hiding in plain sight. You know, you think Regent Street. I mean, Regent Street is like the center of London. It's Piccadilly Circus, you know, yet, yet actually, an awful lot of people don't quite know where the hotel is. And in a way that that I think works to its favor, because you have all of this incredible location around us, you've got very busy streets around us, you know, one side is Soho and all the energy of Soho and the cool restaurants and bars there. You know that you then a street away from all the shopping of Mayfair and Savile Row. You know we're closer to Bond Street than most of the hotels in Mayfair are to Bond Street. And then Theaterland is behind you. You've got Chinatown next to us. You know it's a really incredible location yet somehow when you come to the hotel and come through the doors it's almost like that was a thousand miles away. Very quickly it dissipates and you kind of step into this serene luxury hotel. It's a great, great hotel.

Danica Smith: And it comes back to that kind of energy that you can create and have away from that hustle and bustle. So when you look at kind of all of the history and the iconic history and legacy around the property, and it is such a balance with the new demographics and just the, the atmosphere and the energy that, you know, and your branding, everything from property to branding, it's very different, like you say, to that kind of traditional hospitality as you like, but. How do you balance the legacy with the evolving needs of the modern guest?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. Something that we very much kind of embrace here is this term, I love this term, zeitgeist. And it's kind of just this thought of what is the current trend, what's the current interest that people have, and trying to use that zeitgeist from a guest experience viewpoint. And I'll give you a really good example of something that we, have done recently here. You know, the hotels the world over polish people's shoes. So what what you have in your head when you hear that is men's leather, black leather shoes put in a bag and left out overnight. I would say 99% of our guests are wearing sneakers. probably some limited edition rare nike air jordan something or others or from one of the amazing stores on bond street in a sunday or sneakers or something so offering a shoe shine service. If we're embracing the zeitgeist we got to be able to clean sneakers and we got to be able to do that in a really. genuine, clever way. And actually by doing that and embracing things like that, we become relevant for guests for today. And that might sound like a trivial little detail, but actually that detail is important. Just as important as every other kind of touch point that a guest has in their journey with us.

Danica Smith: It's a great example because it's so overlooked. I mean, I'm like, how do you clean sneakers? And I can imagine the ones with the diamonds on versus the artwork. It's quite varied. So, I mean, Eugene, in that, keeping in that theme, how do you keep up and allow, I guess, the space to understand what are the new trends? How do you adapt operationally to meet that? Talk me through that process, for example, of switching the shoe leather cleaner to the trainers. What does that process look like operationally?

Eugene Leonard: Well, first, it's about the team and it's about empowering the team. So creating a culture of adopting this kind of zeitgeist and creating a culture of like, how can we be better for our guests? You kindly said earlier about having a dedication towards guest excellence. You know, and this is this is it. You know, it's it's how can we be better for our guests today than we were yesterday. Yesterday we were good or we were great. How can we be even better today? And I think adopting that culture first within the team, they're the ones that then come up with all these ideas of sneaker cleaning and, oh, we should do this, we should do that. Or they're hearing it from guests. Guests are asking them, you know, we've recently had some guests ask, do we accept cryptocurrency? And I think that's something worth looking at.

Danica Smith: Absolutely. I mean, yeah.

Eugene Leonard: There's all sorts of businesses all over the world accepting cryptocurrency now, you know. And again, I think also by being early adopters to things, you can be you can you can be ahead of your competition almost a little bit by doing that. And you can build guest loyalty from that as well. So yeah, having the team kind of front and foremost thinking about these things is, you know, it's not down to one person, is it? You know, there's experts all over the hotel in every different department and section, whether it's the guys and girls in the bar or whether it's the people in housekeeping or wherever it is. You know, if you're always kind of thinking, gosh, how can we do something better for the guest?

Danica Smith: I mean, Eugene, I can definitely see that you are a GM that walks his property, knows his teams, is really heavily, heavily, heavy handed in the most positive way from an operations perspective. But talk to me just there when you were talking about cryptocurrencies. Immediately, I thought, well, I wonder what the finance and revenue team will say. So when you talk about that culture of being guest experience first, living and breathing operationally, yes. How do you do that with your kind of back of house teams, maybe not on property, head office? How do you kind of get them as obsessed with the bar, the housekeeping and the receptionist in your teams?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's everyone, isn't it? It's not one person, you know, and I often use this kind of analogy to talk about what it is that we do. Right. So whether, whether you work in housekeeping, whether you're working in a front of house role, you know, that's very impactful towards the guest experience, or whether you're working in a back of house role or an admin job. You actually, we're all working in the same industry. So if you've chosen to be an accountant in hospitality, you're working in hospitality first and foremost, and you're an accountant second. You know, and hospitality, what's hospitality about? There's so many brilliant kind of conversations happening at the moment around what is hospitality, and there's been some incredible books and things written by people about that recently. But for me, hospitality, it's actually pretty simple. It's about how you make, how you can make people feel happy. Our job is to make people feel happy. And if we kind of take that as being the core attribute that everyone in this hotel has every single day, whether you work in accounts or you work in the kitchen or you work in behind the reception desk, You're here to just make people happy. That's our core attribute. And that's what hospitality is about. And I think that somehow goes a long way to delivering that thinking. And it somehow ties back into the thought of we don't do it. None of us are here without the guest. You know, HR won't function without a guest or purchasing won't function without a guest. You know, so putting guests first and foremost, I guess, is what helps enable that thinking.

Danica Smith: But it's so simple. Honestly, Eugene, I wrote about this on LinkedIn today, actually, about guest satisfaction. I feel like I need to take you out of the hotel and drag you around all of the conferences and the tech vendors that I, you know, interact with, because that concept of exactly what you say in hospitality, we are here to make our guests happy. Certainly, when you look at kind of the innovation in the industry, I feel like that's kind of lost its forefront of the most important. When we look at AI and innovation and technology and automation and efficiencies, there's not much talk about are we improving guest satisfaction? So it's great to hear you bring it back to those basics of what is most important. So thank you for that, Eugene, a man of my own heart. I think we, as an industry, we're losing that a little bit. So Eugene, at what point in the guest journey do you believe you at Café Royale really make a difference? And it might be different guest profiles have different touch points in that guest journey, but what kind of stands out you immediately where you think, okay, that's what makes us really special.

Eugene Leonard: It's definitely the arrival. If I paint the picture a little bit, you're in a car, you've come from the airport, you're driving along and all of a sudden you turn a corner and there's Piccadilly Circus. There's this incredible, iconic part of London that you look at through your car window and then you turn right and you're in the middle of this super busy part of the city. on one of the most iconic streets in the world you get out of the car and you come through the revolving door and somehow it all just seems to dissipate behind you that there's not that there and. And it's a very big lobby it's a very grand kind of large space for you know there's a lot of volume there which i think that somehow helps. You're greeted by a team that i think are one of the best. rooms, division teams in the country. They are exceptional at what they do. We do a simple gesture of we give everyone a glass of champagne when they arrive at the hotel. And that, together, somehow just creates magic. You know, champagne always kind of helps do that, doesn't it? But when you add all those, when you add all those things together, it creates something quite special. And I wouldn't say the rest is easy, but it certainly, we're off to a good start. Put it that way. So for me, it's the arrival.

Danica Smith: Amazing. And I think it's so nice that you have the recognition in the industry as well. I mean, the awards that you have won is incredible. So, Michelin keys, is it two keys that you've been awarded?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, yeah, very kindly gave us two. Yep.

Danica Smith: That's huge. That's huge. You've got the World Spa Awards, TripAdvisor Traveller Choice Awards, AA Rosettes, Condé Nast Traveller, and you recently won the Boutique Awards. What was the Boutique one called? I can't remember what it was called.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, yeah.

Danica Smith: To keep track of them all.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, it is. It is a full time job for my PA, just keeping track of all the door, which, you know, it's fabulous looking. And I think any kind of recognition that comes our way or my way is always hugely appreciated. We don't do these things to receive awards, but. to get accolades is always incredibly endearing. And it shows that what we're doing is we're doing a good job, especially the ones, I think, and those are the ones that mean the most are the ones that are from the guests. You know, like whether it's the TripAdvisor one or the best of the best, you know, those ones matter when they come from guests or if it's like a big survey and, you know, it's it's kind of the guest voice, I guess.

Danica Smith: How do you celebrate them with the team internally?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, we have a wall downstairs, which we call, I call it the Wall of Fame. It has an official title, I think it's called Celebrating Our Success. But as we get an award, we put it up downstairs and, you know, no better place to do it than right outside our staff restaurant where every single colleague sees it. So on one side of the wall, you've got all of the employees of the month, the winners. And then on the other side, you've got all the accolades that we win and achieve. And yeah, we do that. You know, if it's a really, really big one, we will, of course, have a cake and have some champagne or something like that to Marcus, you know, maybe in a middle event or something like that.

Danica Smith: So that's happening monthly for you guys at the moment. That's exciting. And again, like huge congratulations, because not only is it so incredible to win these awards that are so varied as well, like you say, from the industry, from nominated, from the guests to spa, you know, it really is very varied. Which is incredible. I think it's also, you've got one of the most competitive markets, you know, and if you look at the other amazing properties that have opened this year, you're competing against these brand new iconic properties with big brands, big budgets, you know, that are really pushing that luxury segment even further in London. So how do you feel about the new competition that's arrived on your doorstep in the last year and has kind of changed that landscape? What are your thoughts about it? And, well, clearly you're still winning.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, no, it kind of comes in a mixed, it's slightly mixed, you know. I think on the one hand, it's incredible, the level of hotel development that's happening in London. And you know, at the level that it's happening at as well, the investment, the quality, you know, just looking at the new Rosewood, like the quality there is just exceptional. That must be one of the most, the most anticipated hotel openings has ever been, and the detail, the finish of things, the interior, it's just stunning. It's absolutely stunning. So in a way, isn't it amazing to see our industry developing like this and for it to be happening in London? I regularly use this term, and you hear these statements like, oh, London is the financial capital of the world, or different cities have got these badges as being different things of the world. I really think London is actually the hospitality capital of the world. And I think that because we've got high occupancies, we've got high return, we've got high rev par rates, maybe not as high as some other cities, but you know, it's pretty up there. There's not a hotel brand on the planet that doesn't want to have a hotel in London if they don't already have one. And it is arguably the most competitive landscape of them all, with more coming. So i think it's you definitely need to be on your a game to be running a hotel in london that's for sure. You know so on the other hand it's also scary isn't it you know it's like is there enough supply is there enough demand for all this supply that we're getting now and all these new hotels that are coming in. it absolutely is making it more competitive and i suppose that the bit that's the hardest bit really is. You know the people that work in these hotels that their heads get turned you know when new hotels arrive and and. You know we lost some very very good people to the rosewood you know and and i. You know we were saying here it is actually like a badge of honor for hotel cafe world. The most anticipated hotel in the world is opening, and two of the very senior people have left here to go there. It's like an accolade for this hotel, isn't it? To say, and taken our talent. You know, they could have taken it from anywhere in the world, and taken it from here. You know, so it's a bit of a double-edged sword. But yeah, if only we could get more people working in hospitality, then we'd be in a better place, I think, you know?

Danica Smith: Absolutely, Eugene. Like when you were talking about the supply, I mean, if you look at occupancy, it shows that the supply somehow, the demand remains there, even with the supply coming in. But yeah, the biggest concern is the people for sure. So what, when it comes to retaining, hiring, just kind of creating the awareness and excitement of hospitality, what are your thoughts on that, Eugene? What do you do to really, you know, keep Hotel Café Royal at the forefront of being one of the best hotels to work for as well.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah.

Danica Smith: Not just stay, but work as well.

Eugene Leonard: I think a huge part of it's about culture, isn't it? And about having the right kind of culture. And for us, that stems from we're here to make people happy. So if you're coming to a place, not wanting to kind of sound like Disneyland, but if you're coming to a place where we're all here with the one aim to try and make people happy, then what's the point in having politics? What's the point in having disgruntled? What's the point in having any kind of animosity or anything like that? It's not worth it, is it? So I think having a place where it's got a positive outlook on work and a place where we can all be kind of proud and happy to work is key. We then have this pursuit of excellence, you know, where we're trying to continually be better than we were the day before. Which I think, you know, that's kind of very looks like a sporting analogies, or it's like a sport, you know, you would get that sense in a sporting thing, wouldn't you? Like if you're a part of a team, you know, we won yesterday, but how can we win next week? Yeah. So having that, and then it's, you know, it's about hiring the right people, you know, rather interesting. There was at a talk there, there the other day, and someone said to me that they have interviewed for the last 20 years. They've only ever asked one question in an interview. And I thought that's it. You know, that's that's interesting, isn't it? Because I've kind of actually done something similar. I've only ever asked like two or three. And really, their question was like, why? Why here? And why now? You know, and I think it is such a relevant question, isn't it? Because that one of all is going to answer. about attitude, it's going to answer about fit, you know, and that's the bedrock of it. I think everything else can, can, you can kind of teach things, can't you? You can teach technical skills and, but kindness, you can't really teach kindness. Yeah.

Danica Smith: And what advice, Eugene, do you have for other GMs and leaders that are listening to this around the world that perhaps have just entered a new job where the culture is not there in terms of putting the guests at the heart of everything, making sure kindness is one of the true values that they lead with? What advice do you have as a leader that's just arrived on the new property and that culture's missing?

Eugene Leonard: It all takes time. I think hotels can be a little bit slow to adopt things, but it can take time to change culture, or it can take time to move in a different direction. So give it time, and in that time, be visible, be kind. And be curious, right? You know, ask questions like, why is something the way it is? Or why do we do it like that? Or, you know, being curious isn't a good thing or a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It can maybe help you get, help you get better, you know? But yeah, I think being visible and being curious and just taking time, if you're afforded the time, that's key. But yeah.

Danica Smith: And Eugene, as we mentioned in the beginning, your career is one that I'm sure I would like to present to my university students, for example, studying strategic hospitality of just kind of the vast array of properties that you've worked at. Is there a moment in your career that best sums up why you love this industry? Is there a specific moment that stands out to you?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, I mean there's a ton of them. I could spend all day talking to you about them, but let's see if we can maybe talk about one or two. One that really stands out for me is there was a day when I was at Claridge's, and Claridge's somehow, when you work there you realize that you are a part of the history, you become a custodian of that hotel. It's going to long outlive everyone. And it has this kind of longstanding history for being at the top of the hospitality world for centuries. But you also get this feeling while you're there that absolutely anything could happen in a day. And I'll never forget one day, we were hosting the Gold Service Scholarship, the final, the award ceremony. And the patron at the time was Her Majesty the Queen. And she came to bestow the award that night. Of course, we knew that this was going to happen. And she arrived to the hotel, was greeted at the front door by the general manager. I was the hotel manager at the time, so I was a couple of steps back. And as soon as she arrived at the lobby there, you've got the foyer, which is the restaurant that kind of sits right in front of the lobby. Every guest in the lobby stood up, walked forward into the lobby and just started, created this kind of guard of honor and started applauding her as she arrived. And it was just like, wow, the power of her and her presence. It's so significant. And at that exact same moment, so she turned then left to go down towards the ballroom. And at that exact moment, the elevator came down, the lift came down, and the liftman opened the gate, the old classic gate, and out walks none other than Matt Damon. And of course, Matt Damon walks out and there's all these people in the lobby clapping away and he thinks that it's for him. And he kind of walks out, you know, and he bumps into the Queen. And like some security guard comes over and just like shoves him out of the way. It's like, no, it's not for you.

Danica Smith: Not for you, yeah. Next! Wow.

Eugene Leonard: Only in Clatteradews can something like that happen, you know?

Danica Smith: What other careers does that, you know, does that happen? I mean, I love that. That's a great, that's a great story. And yeah, a great pivotal moment, not just because it's the Queen, but the scenario. And I mean, so everybody who stood up clapping, that was obviously not orchestrated. It was just a complete organic reaction to her being there.

Eugene Leonard: Absolutely. But if you think, right, there's that was a Tuesday in October. at Plowridges. What does the next day at work look like? It's quite remarkable, really. Not every hotel, granted, has all that, but hotels have significant things take place in them and happen, whether it's for famous people or whether it's just for normal people like you and I. Some very pivotal things can happen like that or happen like that in hotels that make people feel special, I guess.

Danica Smith: Yeah. So, Eugene, this is quite a tough question, but what would you say is your personal definition of hospitality excellence in one sentence?

Eugene Leonard: I think it's what I've been saying, you know, we all have this ability to make others feel a certain way. And hospitality excellence is about making everyone feel good. It's about making people feel happy. And it's quite remarkable, really, when you think about it, we all have this inner ability to make those around us feel a certain way. It can make you feel good. I can make you feel bad. I can make you feel happy. I can make you feel sad. You know, it's quite remarkable, really, that we all have this kind of internal power and ability over those around us. And I think hospitality is about recognizing that and having that ability to make people feel good. Yeah. Imagine if every single person that walks through the door of your hotel, you make them feel good. You've delivered hospitality excellence.

Danica Smith: Well, you can be a GM that can proudly hold his head high and say you and your team achieved that with your guests. I hope so.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, we're trying anyway.

Danica Smith: So Eugene, before we jump into a quick fire round of questions, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners that maybe I haven't touched on today?

Eugene Leonard: Do you know, there's something that we were talking about the other moments that that are kind of special in our industry. And this one sticks with me. I was on honeymoon. I was very fortunate to be on honeymoon with my wife in the four seasons in the Maldives.

Danica Smith: Ah, beautiful property.

Eugene Leonard: Incredible property. And the thing that stood out there wasn't the ruins. It wasn't the island. It wasn't. The setting was incredible. One night we were sat on the beach and the sun was setting. We were the only people there. Everyone else had left. You know, they kind of started packing up and everything like that. And we thought, you know, what an incredible moment. And we could see like all the way down the beach, someone was coming, walking towards us. And maybe in kind of true British cynical style, I think my wife said, Oh, here we go. They're going to tell us we got to leave the beach. It's closing. And actually, this guy was walking all the way up the beach, and he had two glasses of champagne with him. And he had this little bucket. And inside the bucket was three sand crabs. And he had a little marker pen. And we played a little race in the sand with these sand crabs. You know, my number one, number three, number seven, we had a little race. And then we went back to our glass of champagne, you know, and just the power of that was was that is probably the most memorable moment I think I've ever had in a hotel. And it's not, it wasn't the, the furniture or it wasn't the, the general manager or it wasn't, you know, it was, it was just someone being super nice and recognizing us having a special moment. So I think, yeah, that would be my, uh, I don't know why I'm sharing that, I guess, because it's, uh, you know, we have, we have this ability to make people feel special and, and you should do that more than anything.

Danica Smith: Absolutely. No, I thank you for sharing. I think it's really important that as an industry, we keep reminding ourselves of the simplicity of what we do and how we do it and why we do it. And that story of you and your wife racing crabs on a beach is exactly that creating memorable, authentic, simple experiences. That's what hospitality also is about. So thank you very much, Eugene. Before I let you go, I would like to do a quick fire. Emphasis in the name, Eugene. So keep it quick. Keep them coming. First thing that comes to your mind. Morning ritual you never skip before work.

Eugene Leonard: Getting coffee.

Danica Smith: Yeah, essential. If you weren't a hotel GM, what do you think you would be doing?

Eugene Leonard: Uh, something to do with in sport, probably the world of sport. I don't know. Hopefully it would have been good enough to be an athlete or something like that. But I got very into triathlon for a long time. Yep. So probably triathlon maybe.

Danica Smith: Do you do any triathlons now or train or any crazy events?

Eugene Leonard: Yeah, I used to do an awful lot. I don't so much at the moment. I have two young children at the moment and somehow it's hard to find the time to do any kind of training with two young kids at the moment. But before their arrival, I did a lot. But yeah, yeah. Semi-retired, let's say, or until they get a little bit older.

Danica Smith: Paused. Yeah.

Eugene Leonard: Yeah. Paused. Yeah.

Danica Smith: Yeah. Favorite London hidden gem that's outside your hotel?

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Eugene Leonard: I am going to say the river, the Thames. I think it is this absolutely incredible, you know, the fact that you can walk along this path that's 250 miles long or something like that. And you see the city through all these various different, I'm very fortunate that I live close to the river, see it here beside me. And, you know, you, you get this incredible walk, you know, just like, for example, to go from like Borough Market down to, down to Big Ben, what an incredible walk that is. Yet where I am, that walk is, it feels like you're in the countryside and there's dogs running off leads, you know, it's an incredible, there's something about being next to that river that actually I find special.

Danica Smith: Remind me to send you a link, there's a 100k walk, but you can do 50 or 25 and it's all along the river, it's a great challenge. Okay, who in hospitality inspires you the most right now?

Eugene Leonard: I'm going to say a friend of mine, Will Guidera, wrote this book, this incredible book, Unreasonable Hospitality. I think he's just a brilliant example of someone that went from running an incredibly important restaurant and group of restaurants. And he's kind of moved into a different space now of, of, of speaking, writing books, producing TV shows, you know, just shows that there's this kind of, there's this whole other direction you can move your career in if, if you want to. And I think he's just a brilliant voice of what good hospitality is.

Danica Smith: Yes, it's on my to-do list. You're the third person that's recommended it to me this month. If my husband's listening, Christmas present tick! Well, thank you so much, Eugene. It's been a pleasure to have you on Hospitality Daily. Like I said at the beginning, we really admire what you're doing at Hotel Cafe Royale, but also broader than that for the industry as well. So I'm excited to bring you back in a year's time and learn what new awards you have under your belt. So thank you so much, Eugene.

Eugene Leonard: Thank you so much, Danica. What a lovely chat. Thank you very much.