Hospitality Beyond Hotels: Redefining the Future of Retirement Living - Jan Garde & Matthias Huettebraeuker

Josiah: Earlier this week, one of the themes I touched on in my recap of the NYU International Hospitality Investment Forum was the applicability of hospitality beyond hotels. One of the best examples of this is in senior living, which is why I'm thrilled to have our innovation correspondent, Matthias Huettebraeuker, interview someone in this episode about how he's doing this. I'll let Matthias introduce our guest, but just wanted to say that while this is a longer conversation about building something hospitality based, but in a different industry, I'm really excited to share it with you because I want you to hear about the process behind how he built it and the insights that he discovered along the way. Because whether you work in traditional hospitality, senior living or something else entirely, I think you'll be as inspired as I was by how he cares for people using the principles of hospitality. Let's get into it. 

[intro]

Matthias: My guest today has a background in advertising and telecommunications. He has studied in Harvard and Stanford, and maybe most importantly, if you want to revolutionize hospitality, he's part Dutch. He's the founder and chairman of THE EMBASSIES of Good Living, a "global intergenerational hospitality concept that changes the way you perceive and experience getting older." The first property is currently being finalized and is opening later this summer in Hamburg, Germany. Jan Garde, welcome to the show.

Jan: Thank you for having me.

Matthias: Jan, we've known each other for a bit now, right? We've shared conference stages, we've shared a seed investor, which, you know, as some people know, can be quite a formative experience. And from day one, I've been very excited about your concept. I find it so inspiring on so many levels, but before we maybe dive a bit deeper into those levels, Why don't you give our listeners a little intro about what is the embassies? Why do they exist? Why should we pay attention?

Jan: Love to. The embassies is in effect sort of the answer to a quest that I had ever since I saw my grandparents moving into a retirement home, which is basically revolving around the question is how we live and how we live as we get older, seeing it firsthand in personal experience and family. I thought the existing model is a little bit sort of missing the boat on many fronts, a place that is often deemed more sort of the solution than an option, often perceived very much out of a medical infrastructure context. Often it's sort of the last resort. something people try to fight off and fundamentally what we understood when we looked into that space is that there is a huge opportunity and basically trying to create something that is aspiring and potentially is even allowing people to look forward to that third or fourth quarter in their lives with dignity, with sort of quality of life in mind and especially with sort of true consumer needs in mind. And that's a little bit sort of where we started off, reshaping the idea in a sense that we put the consumer front and center and basically create an experience that is always driven customer centric or human centered. And by there, maybe not creating rocket science, but something that is pretty close to people's life reality once we sort of pass 60s, 70s. And in an interesting, strangely funny concept as a society, it's a topic that we all sort of talk about, but not really talk about. It's a topic that everybody's kind of thinking about, but not really thinking about. And I think what we did is we basically started where most conversation ends, which is, we really should. And we said, okay, let's go. And basically, we've created something for ourselves. It's a little bit selfish, as it's sort of trying to answer also a question that we have very personally. And it's an interesting approach when you try to design something that is also deliberately to your own standards. And that's a little bit sort of how we approach that topic.

Matthias: It's actually, most good companies start with a selfish idea, right? Most startups are the ones that make it all the way, don't come from, let's do some kind of startup, but they come from a deep personal need, like Instagram was founded because Systrom left. taking pictures so much. Facebook was founded because he wanted to be in contact with girls. He couldn't be in contact with blah blah blah. So it starts a lot with being selfish. But explain a little bit more about the model. A typical embassy has like a couple of floors with apartments or like a rooms product which is distinctly private, right? And then you have what we in hospitality call the public areas. What are the access models to both? So how do you get into live there and how do you get into being part of that community?

Jan: Sure. I think the first and foremost question we ask is what are we trying to solve here? And before we started designing or before we started basically executing, we tried to really understand the market and understand the consumer changing needs in that sector. So, what we did is we had a whole lot of pretty terrible coffees in retirement communities, spent quite some afternoons, some funny, some deeply sad, some deeply worrying. But with a ton of insights, we went home from those conversations, both in existing communities, different models, care, assisted living, memory care. So it's trying to understand how people are tackling the same problem in a way. And we try to understand what is it we're really trying to solve here. And I think one of the key insights we gained through all those conversations Often also with people that were not yet in retirement communities or not yet in senior living communities and really trying to understand, okay, what is it you're really afraid of? So what's your real problem? And I think the key thing that we learned is in the beginning at being sort of coming out with design minded world, you're pretty quickly to jump to solutions, right? Our first answers were probably it's design, as always the answer is design, probably it's programming, probably it's quality of food, probably it's maybe architecture. And as much as all those components are deeply contributing to a rich quality of life, 100%, I think the number one thing that we understood is that is not really what we need to change. So fundamentally what we needed to change is not making the most beautiful retirement community, but making the first non-retirement retirement community. So I think embassies, we internally often say it's for people that never really want to fully retire. So these are people that still want to be active, that still want to sort of participate in life. And the number one thing that people hate most, or our audience hates most in the existing setup, isn't all those things that are on the surface really easy to answer, if you know what you're doing basically. But we understood that the true problem was the fact that we are socially isolating people at some point in their lives. And that makes totally no sense. That was a good idea in kindergarten, having the same group of people in the same room with the same needs and trying to come up with a solution, but mimicking this with grown-ups that have been living their lives interestingly with all the curves and hits and bolts. And then we come with a solution saying, you know what, from tomorrow onwards, all of your old classmates will be in that same building as yours. And if you're really lucky, once a month, your family's coming to visit. So what you're doing is you spend 29 days a month waiting for that one day where that family is coming. Now, that that is not really an enriching experience is clear. Yes, there is a whole of really and basically scientific proven evidence that community is helping. So there are definitely drivers that sort of once you move into an assisted living environment, because you have peers all of a sudden, there is a new a lively experience in that sense. So you meet other people, there's something going on, but you're still sort of trapped with the same group of people in your same age group. And finally, as humans, we have this innate ability to be really funny. And we often come with that example of, because I really like her a lot, the 94-year-old woman who sort of told me once, you know what, Jan, on the weekends I go to the elderly home in my neighborhood and help the elderly. And I was like, Cool, you're 94, so you don't perceive yourself as elderly too. But no, she doesn't. And that comes from that funny fact that we always feel younger than we actually are. So once we sort of mirrored that experience with people around us that are all our age, we're like, Jesus Christ, these people got old and sort of missing a boat a little bit on what we are. Long answer to a simple question, but I think it hopefully answers the point what we're trying to do is bring people together.

Matthias: Yeah, what I find interesting in your concept or the positioning of it is that, as you said in the beginning, on the surface it's catering to a social demographic, right? It's basically people are a bit seasoned. probably have a little bit of cash piled up, I don't know, about the price point. And of course, that's a smart move because if we look at Western societies, people are old, there's a lot of them, that's where the money is, all the boomers are retiring, so the market's growing, blah, blah, blah. But then looking at the concept, the narrative, it's more than that, right? And you call it intergenerational. And if you look at your website, you can see older people as well as younger people. And they're basically doing the same in the pictures, right? The same situation, the same settings. So, A, do we need to understand that the psychographics of people who are older now or who are getting older now are entirely different from what we… thought, so it's not about, you know, providing them with what they're used to and traditional values and, as you said, not about providing a decent exit to the afterlife or something, right? But do we have to rethink how older people are like? And B, do we also, to a degree, move away from social demographics and look at mindsets if we develop products? Is that both true?

Jan: I would say 100% true to both of those statements. I think there's a very interesting shift happening at this point in time in our society. I think the embassies would have not been the embassies 10, 15 years ago. Basically, our market would not yet exist. I think one thing that we are seeing right now is a bit true to the second part, what you mentioned is demographics as the oldest marketing segmentation idea on the planet has been ruled out I think for some time now, I hope, at least in some cases.

Matthias: It kind of has been ruled out in the discussions, but then if you look at what people are designing for, they say, yeah, we have the Generation Z product, right? So everybody says it's not about demographics, but then the entire story is about demographics, basically.

Jan: I think how we approach it is about explicitness and implicitness. That's sort of what we talk a lot about internally, but I think you're totally right in your observation that that is still out there, right? And on the journey that we've embarked on, We often hear that, oh, we all knew that there is a market for that audience, but we had no idea that you could actually make it look cool, right? So in a way, what we are doing with the embassies, we haven't created rocket science. What we're doing is we've looked at the market maybe a little bit longer, and we've predominantly looked at the people in that market, how those people are changing. And one of our partners explained us early on that the true value in what we are building is probably not in the product, probably not in the bricks and mortars, but it's probably in our consumer. And it took us a little bit of time to understand truly what that meant, but I think by now we definitely understand what that sort of is opening us. is what that opportunity looks like a little bit. And the concept of designing something for people, non age-specific, but taste-specific and mindset-specific allows us to be way broader than we always thought. When we set out to do this, Henning, my co-founder and I, we were sitting together and we were trying to understand, okay, who's our audience and in the beginning we were thinking probably seven plus, probably this and that social demographic. And then we started working with the waiters last year. We tried to understand who are our people to get even closer to them. We did customer clinics from the very start. But this was trying to understand that audience that's sort of secretly following us. Who are these people? And we were betting on what age groups that would sort of predominantly fall in. And then we realized, wow, our audience is actually younger than we had anticipated. not slightly, but actually substantially. And then by going to market now in Hamburg, and we've got people that visit the showroom apartments now in Hamburg, we're realizing, oh, holy crap, we're in an entirely different field than we had started and anticipated. But finally, when you sort of mix those people, and we just recently had that situation in the showroom where there was a couple that was in their 80s, and somebody was in their 40s, If you leave them alone, they get along extremely well because they are the same kind of people. They are different in age, but they're very similar in terms of what do they like, what are their preferences. They're predominantly looking like it. That was really interesting that we're moving into a world where it's less about age. And as you beautifully said, it's more about mindset.

Matthias: And to add to that, I find it also interesting when I read about or read your literature and everything, it's not that the values you describe are not about dignity and stuff, but you're saying stuff like curiosity and new beginnings and mobility and stuff, which is quite beyond the obvious. But sticking to the intergenerational aspect, what I also found interesting on the pace into this. Some people are 80 and some people are 40 or even younger. I recently read a book from Joan Didion, the American writer, and one of the essays, and there's a line I love so much, which is, let me quote it, which is, great hotels, of course, have always been social ideas. And the embassies really seems to be about this intergenerational social ideas to counter isolation with let's bring them all together and maybe talk about the mentorship idea that you have and this lifelong learning that you quote and the growth potential in that too. So you're really not only accidentally having this intergenerational aspect, but you're kind of institutionalizing it, right?

Jan: Yeah, I think that is very much a little bit, I would say, the role that we are playing. So we're basically hosting a gigantic kitchen party or a gigantic dinner party. So yeah, so the other day, it's a bit like a gigantic student housing project, but there was really cool people. Like, yeah, nice. And we are all a little bit older and we might not buy the cheapest wine if we were invited for dinner, but maybe a little bit nicer one. And I kind of like that. I kind of like that sentiment. I think to the point for us, we're a bit the curator and the orchestrator and the facilitator. Those roles are pretty much embedded into how we perceive the embassies being. We love working with partners. We brought in a whole array of really interesting local but also global partners. that we think are contributing something really interesting to our audience. And we are basically the curating component, not only who's living next door to each other, but also who's sort of joining our platform, as we like to call the embassies being a platform. And on that platform, the most important players on that platform are our residents, our ambassadors. When we sort of dove deeper into those people, we understood that there's so much to learn from them and there's like a really interesting wealth of experience, they've accumulated a great network, they're extremely social, yes they are maybe a little bit more on the affluent side of things, they've lived a pretty self-determined interesting life, and for us it would be a total waste of that opportunity to just house them. But what we like doing is giving them a space also to shine and still contribute. And I think when we look deeper into that audience, we are basically talking. There is a ton of super interesting psychological shifts happening as we go through our 50s, through our 60s, through our 70s and onwards. Some of them are super hard for us to swallow, especially for people that have an entrepreneurial soul. Slowing down is one of them, really tough. Focusing is tough. Becoming more and more invisible as we get older is tough and unfairly balanced. That happens earlier for women than it does for men, often. And I think there's a ton of really interesting outcomes to work with. That was our intel there. Now, we knew we had an interesting audience that would come to the embassies for the living component, and then we've got a pretty interesting group of people that sort of participate in the club experience. By mixing those two groups, we understood and see a ton of opportunity and bring those two together. Now imagine you're in your late 70s, you've lived an entrepreneurial life, you kick down, take life maybe a little bit easier now than you did in your 50s or 60s, but there's so much you can still do and contribute and here are we to combine those two groups. In a facilitated fashion, as you said, we call our ambassadorship fund model, which basically allows us to take some of the operation process into investment vehicle that allows young entrepreneurs to apply. Our residents, our GPs in that fund, they basically decide what we spend the money on. But that's more on the surface, the concept. The underlying premise is we combine the experience of somebody in the 80s, link them to a young entrepreneur and therefore create this mentorship facilitation model that all of a sudden now my 80-year-old version of myself can contribute to a younger person's venture. I feel needed. I feel part of something that is intriguing and maybe interesting to me, where I can add not just capital, but maybe experience and network. And all of a sudden, I've got a win-win situation, both for the younger entrepreneur and the more seasoned, experienced person that lives with us. And that is obviously something that I can definitely see myself doing as I'm older. And at the same time, I'm doing it right now with the embassies already, because that's a little bit how we've created our shareholder structure that we allowed experienced seasoned veterans to participate in what we're building. Not only passing on knowledge, but sometimes the definition of a smart investor is being able to draw up on a little bit of experience from past years.

Matthias: Yeah, it seems it comes a little bit back to what you said, the momentum of it, right? It seems another thing that would probably not have worked 10, 15 years ago, because I feel But the message you just said is such an interesting message for the broader society, because as with AI and everything, knowledge becomes commoditized, basically. So it seems like what you just said, wisdom, experience, really seems the new superpower to have these days. And our perception of the value of older versus younger people seems to shift with that.

Jan: I hope, and I think you're right.

Matthias: Yeah, me too. Being older, I do hope that. Wishful thinking at play, maybe, but I think there's truth to it.

Jan: I think what AI gives us is the abundance of opportunity. So, what you need is decision-making power. AI can give us a thousand different options for a problem, but having walked in somebody's shoes and having sort of making the wrong decision before, that is less than the AI is probably a little bit away from getting us into a positioning of decision-making, and I think when we especially look at that resident versus how we can accelerate the community component a little bit, I think that is very much where that experience comes in. And like I said, today I'm drawing my we call our advisory board, our partners, being able to call up those people that have walked maybe around the block a couple more times than I did, drawing up on their experience, on the decisions that they've taken, right and wrong, is something that goes a long way of AI replacing that, I would assume. So I think we with them since we are trying to create that place, not just the sense of place, but really sort of a community of experienced people that can help my life being better.

Matthias: Speaking of community, maybe moving there, because everybody speaks about community, right? Every short-stay hotel speaks about, we're a community of travelers, like-minded, blah, blah, blah. But I think community, one of the major lessons from all those failures out there is community is not about ticking enough boxes in some hipster bingo kind of play, right? And it's not about having a membership card to be part of something. But it seems, and the embassy is, you know, distinctly long stay, you know, for as long as it lasts. It seems community is a function of proximity and not of that fleeting one or two day proximity, but of really sharing a habitat, at least partially, habitual encounters, shared pleasures, shared struggles maybe. and of purpose and would you agree or what's your take on that? Is your way actually to have people together for a longer period of time and mixing people from within the concept with neighbors and stuff? Is that the only sustainable way of building a community and all the rest is just… just going through the motions basically?

Jan: I definitely share maybe some cynicism around the word community and a lot of pitch decks and a lot of people's positioning, so sure, 100% I think. Community, although the letter is missing, but the P of people is sort of core and central in that word. And I think community is not something that you do, but it's sort of the result of what you did. And I think community is something that grows over time, but community is very much a feeling. It's not something that, oh, we have a community now, it's not a group, and it's not Tuesday mornings, eight till nine running club, that's not a community. The community is Jesus, where's Peter? Peter didn't show up this morning for running, that is a community. And the components is, As much as it's hard work, community is work. And it's very grassroots. It's people's problems. It's people's ideas. And it's fundamentally, and that's where I think hospitality is sometimes missing a step, because we should be the best in that. Because basically, hospitality is what sits at the beginning of a community. Again, think of the dinner table. You rock up at a dinner party. The way how you're greeted, the way your jacket has been hung, the way that you've been shown to your place, the way that you've been introduced to the others at the table, makes a huge difference in your experience at that table. You walk away with maybe some interesting, funny stories of the person that sat next to you, but if done right and the curation of that group is tight, what you end up is that the people that sat next to each other start connecting. And ultimately, that is about connecting.

Matthias: How do you curate, right? Because if someone has that buy-in into your concept, it's quite literally a buy-in, right? It's a high involvement thing, so they want to be sure that they're actually around people that that they like, right? So if you try to find analogies, I'm always thinking about those cooperatives in New York that are Central Park adjacent, where the people living there have a vote in does the new one get in and stuff. Do you have any kind of, or the Solo House does the same with endorsement and stuff, right? So do you have any kind of curation mechanism or are you deliberately not doing that? And are you saying like, if you understand the concept and want to move in, that's good enough? Or how do you go about curation? Because you mentioned curation a couple of times.

Jan: It's maybe the oldest version of community building was basically about people and meeting people and you have to meet them. And it's the same image of the dinner table. We do regularly host dinners. So it's not a week that goes by where we don't have friends and new friends and potentially new friends over. at a table, sharing dinner with, understanding who they are, understanding what their motives are, understanding what their life really looks like today and potentially tomorrow. And you have to understand sort of why people want to come. And I think there's a few indications that come through in every conversation. Luckily, until today, we hear a lot of what can I bring as a question and we don't hear a lot what do I get. And that is a huge, huge differentiating component if you're thinking about an enriching community. Obviously, there are questions as to what are the details of something, but the component of what can I bring is something that I really like as a metaphor also for, even in a friendship, even in a very personal experience, those who just take us, but give us get lucky. And I think the community component It's something that is a personal one. You need the vetting, you need the personal vetting. Until today, that's basically us. We speak to every single individual and we make sure that that individual comes for the right reasons and wants to come for the right reasons. And we have beautiful, beautiful experiences thus far already. I think on the club side of things, we've been blown away by sort of the sheer excitement people come with. Because it's not a place and it's not a place where we sell square meters. It's a place where we curate the people that come in. And that is for those who come in feeling, somebody said, it's a bit like going on a school trip. We are really keen that it's starting and I can't wait for that. And these are sometimes very seasoned people. I'm just thinking without telling any names, but that person that I just have in mind, he's a very, very seasoned, very skilled and successful entrepreneur. He likes to come to the club. to meet interesting people, to be away from their first place, which is work, second place, which is sort of their home office maybe, and they're looking for that third space, a place where they can have those slightly additional components. And then for the residents, it's with giving them an opportunity to look positively into a trajectory where everybody else is telling them, you know, you have got to, you're going to take a step back. You have to quiet down now. Everything's sort of in that negative connotation. Well, we are giving them, hey, you still want to enjoy life? Join us. And that is obviously a very different component. Now, we're not stupid. We also understand that there is a natural end to that. a beauty, beautiful component. And there's a very real side of our business model, obviously. But that's one that we've also looked incredibly deep into and sort of understood where are the components where we can make a difference? What are the trigger points? And what are the points in that journey that really, really change our reality? Now, if If somebody tells you there's a day that I'm going to take your keys away, mobility, your personal individual mobility with your own car is coming to an end today. It's Tuesday morning, 10am, it's raining and I'm taking your keys away. And at 10.15 you're sitting in your apartment and you don't have got a key anymore. Now that is a psychological step that is gigantic in scope and size. And there is obviously, you said, as one of the benefits, shared enjoyments and shared positive things, but there's also shared negative things, right? Struggles. And I think community is not always just sunny and a community does also need to have room for rainy days. Exactly. And really important, privacy and non-privacy. I lived in a care home for three months as a student and gosh, there is not a lot of privacy. And I think one of the components for us that we try to really do fundamentally different is the component of forced solitude versus opportunity of sharing an experience, but also sharing some privacy in the meantime. We don't do Tuesday night bingo nights, everybody's forced to join, but it's basically, we want to give you the opportunity to be in charge, whether you want to be social that day or not. And I think that is one of the components that, for me personally, as a consumer in that product, I think that's something that I look really very much forward to.

Matthias: How important is growth for you? I mean, not economically, but you call yourself, I think, a global club or global movement or something. So how much of the embassy's appeal is based on being multi-destination and how interlinked do you see the properties, right? As people become more and more nomadic, and that's kind of true for boomers as well as zoomers, right? Do you envision a concept where you kind of not only travel within the brand, as Mariette calls it, but actually travel within the tribe? Do you foresee a thing where you're all of a sudden meeting the same people in different locations? Is that part of the idea or are those pretty much locations in their own right and there's just more of them? Or is there a connection?

Jan: I think it's a question that we often hear, especially from investors and partners. I think a question I would have answered differently in different stages of our journey. It would probably be a question that I'm really keen to hear my answer in five years time. Today, my answer would look like the following. We are very much focusing on a local logic. So we are very local and need to be locally embedded. That's deeply relevant and important. You need to give people a sense of place. But the embassies, obviously, we're trying to accustom that experience across different locations. So the opportunity to share also I don't know, spend some of your time in Paris. I always wanted to live in Paris and I still want to live in Paris. So I'm really looking forward to spending some time of the year in Paris in an embassy's location down the line. That is not going to open up in 2025 and probably not in 2026. We're working on something. But so the growth narrative about there are more to come, definitely for us as entrepreneurs, for us as consumers, really interesting. Now, where it starts to become really interesting is, let's go back to the dinner table with our customers. So if you'd ask the same question at dinner table to not me, but to the people that sort of are already in our tribe, they would tell you, ah, interesting. I never thought about that. Definitely I want to do that. But what do you think my life looks like today? They are already doing that, right? They are already traveling. They are already in different social circuits. So they've got their family that is maybe somebody is here, somebody is there. Then they've got their social calendar. So they've got maybe, I don't know, the school reunions once a year. That's in Hamburg. Then the wife, the school reunion is, I don't know, maybe in London or wherever. And then there is work stuff that sort of sold them around and there's cultural interest that sort of gets them traveling on a regular schedule and regular calendar already. So they already come with a calendar. They already come with a schedule. And when we were designing the embassies, we had the idea, ah, it's going to be amazing. And then we're going to make sure that everybody's sort of having an amazing, jolly good time when they are there. And then we talked to the people and they're like, I really love what you do. And yes, I want to come, but I'm really sorry, I can't be there all the time, right? And because they have a life, right? And then we were like, ah, interesting. Yeah, that kind of makes sense, I guess. And as much as a hotel is trying to sort of bring special destination hotels, you try to lock in people within the concept. We understood very quickly, okay, the operations of the building, they need to be secluded financially from the reliance of the contribution of our residents. So if the restaurant, for instance, the cafe is banking on the residents being there, it's going to be a shit show because guess what? They won't be there every day, right? And by looking again into the social drivers, we want the public spaces and also the club, we wanted that not to be a gated community. So the downstairs F&B offering needs to be a local fiber concept, right? It needs to be immersive and people need to make sure that it's activated. which drives the attractivity and it also allows us to make sure that we don't feel, I don't know, in a weird secluded club kind of thing where nobody is coming in. And that again drives traffic, that allows our residents, not that they only see the same people all the time, but if they want they can go downstairs, have a coffee and meet people of all ages, all backgrounds, who are just participating in the Ground Floor experience. So the Ground Floor is an experienced driver and making sure that we are sort of not the gay community in that sense.

Matthias: Okay, let's maybe move to, I don't know, the genesis story of the embassies, right? When you talk about it, it all seems logical, necessary, you know, of course the world needs that kind of concept, right? But having followed you for quite a couple of years now, it hasn't been easy, right? Because you could stick all those or some of those labels on the concept, right, where residential or branded residential or co-living or whatever, But you're kind of inventing, even though you said it's not rocket science, but you're kind of inventing a category, which as you said before, and I've recently spoke to Hans Meyer of Zoku, and he's basically done the same. So to be 100% led by the needs of customers and not by the product, right? But that means, you probably talked to a lot of landlords who are like, yeah, but what's the asset class? What's the track record? What's the best practice, right? So how much innovation and progress are we actually killing every day? Because we're so stuck with that product and asset-led thinking as opposed to customer-led concepts.

SPEAKER_02: And well, how much time do you have? Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, where to begin? I think so. First, I'm upset.

Jan: I think, totally agree. Yes, we're living in a world where capital is not always very entrepreneurial. We live in a world where capital especially throughout the last couple of years, has been quite scared in a lot of instances. Wars didn't help, a global pandemic didn't help. I think both of those macroeconomical and macro elements and factors have definitely contributed to the fact that we have taken a longer time than we had hoped till opening day. But I must say, the change that those two effects have brought are probably the biggest accelerators behind our situation today. Now, did I hope for either of those? Obviously not. But when you look at sort of where is our world at the moment in real estate, in commercial real estate, in terms of how do our cities look like and also our society looks like and is there a better breeding spot for what we're doing, I think my eyes got open pretty wide when i walked with a property developer through new york late last october and we're walking three blocks and he basically showed me every second building and said that's empty that's empty that's something you can take up that's something that's coming up on the market in two months And we were walking through those blocks and we were like, crazy. And with a bit more of an open eye when you walk around, I know, I've been to Frankfurt to the Zeil lately. You walk around there, you're like, Jesus Christ, there's really a lot that needs to change. And there's a lot of empty space. Now that, in the history of hospitality, in the history of also co-working space, et cetera, et cetera, We are in a pretty interesting moment and I think hospitality can be a gigantic accelerator on how to change our cities. Yes, it still needs bold mayors, it needs people with a vision, both on the financing side but also on the capital underwriting side of things. Germany, Switzerland are not markets where those two groups have been historically the most entrepreneurial. But still, you find those people, and I must say, in both of those markets, we're talking currently with somebody in Zurich about a project in Zurich, and it's mind-blowing how forward-thinking they are, and how they approach this, and how they look at their building, not on an ROI base for the next three or four or five years, but really thinking through what the sustainable redevelopment basically means and sort of how is my money best invested. I think today we're still struggling, not we as embassies, but the market as a whole, obviously on the timing problem of a lot of people have bought way too expensive and everybody's looking at each other and basically looking who's paying the 20% haircut of this asset, the shareholders, the investors, the bank. And that is creating some fast. But when you talk to maybe a little bit more long term vision capital family offices, people that sort of want to build a legacy, and they look at their real estate portfolio, they understand, okay, we have to change, we have to adapt, and we have to invest. And there's very provocative, very entrepreneurial minds and ideas out there from areas that I hadn't anticipated it coming. We're talking to very seasoned families that are repositioning their portfolios. and where our product might be one of the options for their refurbishments and their restructuring. And I think when we look at what we're doing for inner cities, we're seeing that at the moment in Hamburg, and we've seen that with Sauer Haus when they sort of started creating their buildings. And yes, they were a little bit more off the beaten track. They went a bit more for the destination approach in the cities, not all the cities, but some of the cities for sure. But you've seen what happened the second that they came in or even announced registered value around went up. And that's something that they successfully executed. and continue to execute. So there is precedent in the market for those repositioning of historical central assets, a sense of community and the sense of place enriching the local environment.

Matthias: Yeah, I think the sentence you just said, like, hospitality can really change cities, that is really a sentence that I actually love and it's an aspiration I think we have to, as an industry, remind ourselves of, right, that we have that capacity, power, maybe we also have the mandate to do that, right, more. question I have when I look at the embassies, because the embassy is not just Jan, even though you're the initial idea giver and stuff, right? And we recently on this podcast, Josiah, talked to Michael Levy of Citizen M, and that's another success story where actually the success could attribute it a lot to like to the disruptive thinking of Hans and Ratan and Rob and Cassius Cramer and stuff, but they also brought Michael in, who has this profound operational hotel background, right? And you're also at the embassies, you have quite an impressive team, right? You have Christoph Hoffmann, who took 25 hours to one of the coolest brands in Europe and beyond, who is a hotel veteran, so to speak. You have Henning who knows a thing or two about development. You brought Anu Shwalian who's been a senior exec at Senior Living. So how important is actually merging founded genius and a little bit of operational wisdom, right? How much do you have to understand an industry in order to disrupt it? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02: I like the question and I'm laughing because it's one that's been normally asked to people that really disrupted something before.

Jan: And as much as we try to do our best here, I wouldn't call myself or us a disrupter yet. I think we still have to show the proof and maybe take it a bit more humbly. But you're right. The first person I ever pitched embassies to was a gentleman that not only taught me a few lessons around brand and the power of brand and sort of placemaking in a lot of ways, but he was very quick to only contribute or tie his commitment to contributing to what we're building by telling me that we have to adhere to bringing the smartest people we can find in the respective verticals that have an impact on what we're doing. And I've taken that piece of advice wholeheartedly and that's sort of how we are thinking around building a group here and not sort of a isolated idea concept maybe. The embassy is today touching already quite a lot of different verticals and by going deeper into the life reality of our consumers, we understand the world that we can basically enter as well. So there is opportunity to go way deeper into a variety of different verticals that we are touching in that space and realities that we are touching. So we will continuously always try to bring in smart people that sort of have experience in those respective fields. And that's something we're currently doing again as well. So that group of, we call our advisory board, with incredibly smart people that sort of have successfully executed in those variety of verticals prior, are helping us in many ways, shapes and forms. And some of them have, as you said, done amazing things, built amazing companies and sort of really shaped and reshaped the business. And I think I'm proud is probably when I look at what we've done till date to until today about the people that we've successfully accumulated from what we're building and drawing out on their experience and network. And that goes way beyond making them a shareholder of a company. It's a little bit on a small scale what we do with the embassies ultimately as well. It's about bringing people together. And we see right now with the folks that we've successfully onboarded and brought together, there's people that start businesses together within that group. of our shareholders. So that's a beautiful thing that sort of evolves and grows. And as much as we think that we know a few things or two, it's always good to have a second opinion from somebody who's done it maybe a thousand times before. And it tells you pretty quickly, okay, these are the two small mistakes that long term will have a huge effect on profitability. So maybe we change that slightly now and then benefit from the huge impact that that generates. And that is, yeah, the power of a group.

Matthias: Okay. Another, maybe on a related subject, another member of the group is, of course, Mr. Tyler Brulé, right? He is a founder of Wallpaper and Monocle and Winkreative, legendary builder of brands and stuff. And you yourself, as I said in the beginning, you have an advertising background in one of Europe's hottest agencies, Dingfenmatt, right? To talk about the importance of brand and storytelling from day one, right? Like really from the inaugural conception phase, how important is it to create not just a sales pitch, to use at some point to sell your thing, but the whole world and perception and universe of a brand way before you open doors, you talk about having a wait list. That's not something hotels normally have, right? So how important are, do you think the impact of storytelling and brand from day one can be underrated? How important is that?

Jan: Well, the person I just referred to was Tyler, actually, who I pitched the concept to, and knowing him for some time, following him for some time, I knew that that pitch I needed to nail, that was probably the most important pitch of that entire journey. And the way I prepared that pitch was quite intense, but I knew that from the get-go we really had big aspirations for what we're trying to do. So I created this, basically a small newspaper with a circulation of one that was for him, went to his office and showed him something that wasn't real, obviously, that wasn't yet in existence. But I was trying to sell a feeling and trying to take him or onboard him on a journey. And that's basically until today what I'll do with everyone that is sort of looking at teaming up with us. When I pitch, I'm trying to get people emotionally attached to what we're trying to build and making them see themselves in what we are building. So by that, I create this a relationship between those I'm trying to pitch to and people understand normally quite quickly what we're trying to do. It's not really super complicated to explain, but it's important to make sure that you are talking about a positive narrative. When I tell you, hey, Matthias, I'm having this concept for senior living, it's going to change how you age and your retirement. We can take really good care of you. Now, the images in your brain will be probably been triggered and filtered through the personal experience that you went through. So in your brain, all the images that you've collected throughout your life with the experiences of those topics will be in your brain. And these will be the images that will be centered around. Now, we have to redesign what you see when you think about it. And therefore, we needed to visualize what that feeling looks like. And that's a little bit how I approached that journey. And one thing that we see today, how we're trying to use that same sentiment and give that in a very actionable format to the people that come in now. we need to make sure that they understand what are they walking away with. What is their story to their friends when they move in here. So a lot of times about not what you sell but what the person that you sold something to is paraphrasing what they bought.

Matthias: So essentially what you're saying is how does it change the story of the guest, right?

Jan: Exactly. Exactly. And what are they telling about you? It's not so important what you tell them, but you really need to pay attention to what are they talking about you. And I think by learning and listening a lot to those who've successfully done that in the past, we came to a formula that is working for us and for our guests.

Matthias: Last question maybe, because you mentioned, when you talked about the concept at the beginning, you mentioned the medical aspect of it, right? And is there a bigger trend in this that goes beyond your product and maybe into bigger hospitality that is kind of medical? and movement and social togetherness and stuff, is that the new wellness, right? Is wellness increasingly in hospitality something that doesn't happen behind a door that says spa, but rather turns into this overarching mindset of physical health, mental health, social health. And it's actually prevention-based rather than anything else, right? And if this is true, will we see this move to urban hospitality more and more? So will this component be a bigger part of how we make people feel in order to cater to their happiness and resilience and togetherness? by that having a total new idea of what it means to be well?

Jan: I think there is precedent, there is opportunity, and there is something called the wellness economy. So I would say if you go back to the big box of buzzword bingo and buzzword lingo. There's a whole lot of language that you can attach to a lot of ideas and concepts. In our space, the magic buzzword is longevity. And in that magic buzzword, there's a whole lot of different components hidden. There's stuff that goes very much into the world of pills and powders and magic effects. And then there is a component that is a bit more geared towards medical and data proven research in that sense. Now both of those areas are increasingly relevant and both of them are being picked up also by hospitality players to contribute again changing the product. I remember when I first embarked on my first hotel experience years and years and years ago. It was very much a product, a bed and a breakfast. Then came the time of maybe design hotels or hotels that sort of were in the world of boutique hotels. They created experiences away from a product offering to an experience offering. We started going for dinner and into hotels. We had a drink and a hotel bar. even if we weren't staying there, which was a huge mind shift. The opportunities now in the next iterative phase, I would say, as I mentioned earlier, I think hotels have a social place in a city and they can function and act as one of those beacons of repositioning of an inner city. And I think, yes, well-being, not wellness, but well-being can contribute to that tremendously. And again, as with everything, there's people that are doing it horribly wrong. And then there's people that successfully have proven that they can create a much higher AR by just focusing on something that is maybe a bit more profound. Four Seasons is doing an amazing job there. Six Senses have been doing an amazing job there, both proving that by adding something of value and substance, they can fundamentally increase their price points with the same product offering by offering and layering that additional component on top of it. Four Seasons teamed up with a partner called Qi Longevity just recently as their global partner in that sector. We teamed up with G-Longevity for the same reasons Four Seasons teamed up with them and invited them to team up with us at the embassies as well because they come from that science-backed approach to those interventions. And as much as there is a group out there of people that are really keen exploring that, yes, right now it's a bit of a buzzword. It's yet to be seen how sticky that is. Are we in the January moment of a gym where everybody's going to the gym and everybody's excited about being in the gym? What happens in August or September? Are we still going to that same place? We don't know yet. That's something that we will be seeing. But is there a change? 100% Is there an opportunity? 100% Can that be as profound as a design hotel versus product offering hotel logic? yet to be seen. And I think some places have a natural right to do something like that. Other places will feel it will feel very weird for us to have that included. So not everybody can integrate that from a brand perspective and a position perspective. You probably feel a bit weird in some hotel operators. worlds to dive into longevity or well-being too much. And with other brands, you feel like they have a right to play in that sense. And this right to play in a market is always really important if you're trying to bring a product to market in that sense.

Matthias: Interesting. To wrap this up, as always, a creative mind like you, what personal place has inspired you most? Where do you draw your inspiration from?

Jan: I must say that probably Tyler has been quite a big inspiration for a lot of what we're doing. I think a place, my last trip to Japan was quite eye-opening. I had been to Japan before, but not with sort of the embassies head on. And by walking the streets of Tokyo, you understand what our life looks like in 10 years time. That was really inspiring seeing what does it feel like if the entire population is 10 years older than it is today. So we will be in a world where the amount of people over 65 will double in the next 10 years and the people over 80 will triple in the next 10 years. So our society looks different just as a societal mix in the next couple of years. And experiencing that in Japan first hand is mind blowing. mind-blowing and that was definitely an inspiration. And on a daily basis, it's my wife and my family. They're basically the rock in everything you're doing and balancing the craziness with sort of the foundation is always key and sort of knowing where you're heading.

Matthias: Good line to end on, Jan. I always love to talk to you. Actually, I admire both your box-defying thinking, but probably more so the perseverance that you showed to push through all those years, right? And I'm very much looking forward to setting foot into your property, which, you know, luckily is in my hometown of Hamburg, so that's a plus. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you for having me.