How I'm Addressing The “Angry Chef” Stereotype And Making Hospitality Careers More Attractive - Kate Gagliardi, Asbury Collection (Sage Hospitality)

Josiah: Food and beverage plays such a huge part of the travel and hospitality experience, but there's two big common problems that we're going to get into in this episode that I want you to think about. One is a culture that is all too often hostile, creating burnout and attrition among talented team members. And this is something that almost gets celebrated in some TV shows and movies. I'm sure you've seen some that immediately come to mind. The second is a dramatic gender imbalance. At prominent U.S. restaurant groups, women only occupy about 6% of head chef positions, and for positions such as executive chef, there are even fewer. Kate Gagliardi is a leader who can speak to both of these points. She's the complex executive chef for the Asbury Collection on the New Jersey shore, overseeing five unique dining outlets at that incredible property. And in this episode, you're going to hear about her surprising career journey from finance and working at a hedge fund to her role today. She shares her perspective on how the culinary world can be a hostile work environment and what she's doing to counter that, encouraging her teams to be creative and bold and take care of themselves. Keep listening to be inspired by what it can look like to run your hospitality business with excellence and lead a culture of care for your teams. 

Kate: I spent a lot of holidays and things hanging out with my grandmother and learning how to cook and that kind of thing. Then I started working serving in restaurants, probably my senior year of high school. I did that throughout college, got a degree in accounting, and worked on a hedge fund for a little while, right during the market crash of 2008. And then- 

Josiah: What was the draw to finance? 

Kate: It was kind of convoluted, honestly. I changed my major a few times in college and I took an accounting class and liked it and was good at it. So I was like, this will be fine. It was, I guess, fine. And honestly, that background was really helpful in the financial part of my job. So I think that gives me a little bit of an edge in terms of reading P&Ls and making sure everything that we're organized on that end. Yeah. And then I pretty much hated it. Market crash. And I was like, I'm good here. Went back to my serving job that I had and then started expoing in the kitchen. 

Josiah: What's expoing? I don't know what that is. 

Kate: Expoing is like organizing the tickets, right? So the cooks will put the food up and then there's someone standing there that kind of like, tells whoever, the food runner, the server, like, okay, this is table 10 or that kind of thing. And then I really liked that, and I had some free time, and I, you know, I was like, okay, I think now is the time for me to go to culinary school. So I did. And then, um, since then, it's worked at, you know, a few, uh, really good restaurants that we have here in Monmouth County and then kind of fell into this job here at the hotel in the summer of 2021.

Josiah: I wonder if you could explain for our listeners and people like me that aren't as close to this world, you think about the culinary world and creating food. You could do that in a restaurant, but what is the exciting, interesting parts, but also the challenges of doing this in a hospital, like a hotel context?

Kate: Well, it's open all the time, right? So we open at 7 a.m. and most places close at 11. So that's challenging. You need to have a lot of employees to be able to, you know, open for that amount of time. And it's more of a different kind of like a rush. Like if you work in a restaurant, you're like 7 o'clock, we're going to get busy, right? In a hotel, it depends on occupancy. It depends on the weather. So it's a little bit different trying to predict how and when you might get busy.

Josiah: Got it. So you have these roles early on. You mentioned working at a number of different places. What did you see in the culture, I guess, in general, in the kitchen or in these restaurants? Because I'm trying to understand culture in general in hospitality, but specifically in F&B. I'm curious what you saw in some of these roles.

Kate: Yeah, definitely long hours, right? Especially independent restaurants. In particular, when you're the sous chef, you're there, you know, 10, 12, 14, 16 hours a day, depending on what's happening. Sometimes 60 is a week. So that's definitely challenging, right? I don't think a lot of people make it like after a while you're like I'm not doing i'm not going to work this out anymore and you just kind of have to like stick to it and eventually it does pay off or you have to at least believe that you know I want to sit not like a boys club but kind of right like a lot of the just conversational things differences right would between what men and women talk about a lot of sports talk a lot of um you know, even music choices are different, you know, more like heavy metal as opposed to like something a little bit quieter. So like things like that.

Josiah: Yeah. Was there anyone in that time of, of your career that had an influence on you either positively or negatively and kind of shaping you to be the leader that you are today? I'm always interested in the, the, I guess, mentors of leaders today, you know,

Kate: Yeah, for sure. I had a couple, two different chefs that I worked for that I took a lot from, whether, you know, hey, I'm not gonna do it like this, or like, I like that, and it's kind of a combination of that, and like, things that I always said when I was, you know, the sous chef or a line cook, like, when I'm the boss, I'm not, that's not, I'm not gonna do that, right? Whether it's like, you know, I try to, if we're short-staffed, I try and take the brunt of that on as opposed to like dumping it down on, you know, my middle managers or the line cooks. So that was something that I always said, like, I'm not gonna, you know, beat the crap out of my guys. I mean, I try not to, like, in certain cases, like, it is what it is, and you kind of have to step up, but that and just different ways of teaching, right? Like, being more hands-on or being more of like an explainer, like a task list giver, right? I like to try and show people what to do the first time. Not everybody can take verbal directions and then make the end product come out right. So the first time, it actually happened today, one of my sous chefs explained something to one of the cooks and I turned around, I'm like, oh, he's not doing it right. Like, make sure that you show them, right? A lot of people Especially in the kitchen, right? You show them one time, they should be able to retain it, but if you're just giving them verbal directions, a lot of times that doesn't… It's just like, you may imagine one thing, and then they imagine something else, and it's… You get totally different products.

Josiah: Yeah. I feel like the way that you train or teach people shapes the culture, it shapes the working environment, it shapes the guest experience.

Kate: Yeah. And you try not to throw people in and be like, well, good luck, right? And then there's always going to be some kind of disconnect. And it doesn't always have to be me. It could be me showing one of my sous chefs and then them showing, right? It just has to be consistent from top to bottom.

Josiah: How would you describe the working environment or the culture within these teams and the various outlets that you oversee? What sort of environment are you trying to create for your teams?

Kate: Well, I like to collaborate with them. I'm using the Ocean Club menu development as an example. So a lot of times, in particular with there, I am probably the most hands-on in that kitchen than any of the other ones because we expect a certain level. It's Forbes rated, so we have to, you know, everything has to be, you know, pretty much perfect, right? So what I like to do is I'll like sketch out a menu of what I like and then give my cooks or my sous chefs like recipes or like talk them through the way that I want it to look and then have them like come up with something and then we'll talk about it and be like oh maybe it needs more acid or it needs more salt or we don't like the way it looks or like something like that and this way it kind of like gives them a little bit of ownership to the dish.

Josiah: That's fascinating to me. At what point do you stop that process where it's like, I'm going to create this framework, or I'm going to make it up to a certain point, and then I'm going to share it with my team for feedback? How far do you go with that?

Kate: I think it really depends on timing. Sometimes there are chances there's times where I make something first and I'm like, okay, like this is I like it like this, or sometimes they'll go all the way through the end, like for the Salvation menu, I had one of my cooks, I gave him like sketched out basically what like the idea was, and I let him fly with it. And most of that menu is his.

Josiah: How often do you think about refreshing the menus? I feel like that's something that ranges widely and the people I talk with.

Kate: It really depends, right? Like, so for here, since we're so seasonal and the Ocean Club has a small volume during the off-season, there we do like about a three-time-a-year menu change. If we were just a regular, like, brick-and-mortar restaurant, I may say to like four to six times a year. I've worked a few places where we were like every six to eight weeks looking at some changes. So, I mean, it really depends, right? The diner will probably do four times a year. The food truck, maybe we'll change it a couple times. You know, some things are really seasonal so they stay. Banquet menus don't change that much.

Josiah: I want to go back, if we could, to the culture that you mentioned observing in some of these other places, because it's fascinating to me around what might create a workplace that's sort of hostile or what one's going to be more welcoming or engaging or just get the best out of people. And so you mentioned some of the little things like the music or even kind of how people socialize. Are there other things that come to mind around that or things that you're doing within each of your locations that you're creating a more positive environment for your teams?

Kate: Yeah, well, I think also, like, you get that like angry chef persona right that we all like have seen on the bear and whatever else. Try not to be like that like I've worked for a couple guys that you never know what kind of mood they're gonna be in and you know just trying to be not saying that I can do this perfectly because I definitely can't but just trying not to you know react poorly right so Obviously chefs are perfectionists and you think after a certain number of times like how many times I'm going to say the same thing that someone would like respond, and when they don't that's 100% frustrating right like I totally get in and just I really trying not react in a negative way or in a poor way. And you also have to, like, realize who can take it and who can't, right? So some people, maybe you have to really be on them and be strict and just remind them every second of every day. And some people really, really don't do well with like constant reminders. So I think part of that is just Also reading your employees and trying to figure out, you know, who responds best to which ways because maybe it's I send my sous chef to, you know, talk to a person or it's a different way a different approach, you kind of always have to be evolving and just like trying to get better not only like in the food aspect but in the management aspect.

Josiah: Well, I feel like on every level there, there's a lot that you must have to do as a leader to show up in that sort of way. Everything from leading this sort of culture to being attentive to what each person needs. At the beginning of our conversation, you're talking about just the long hours and the amount of work that's involved in that. What have you found useful to, I don't necessarily want to say like take care of yourself, but I guess like get yourself in that state where you're able to lead effectively in a pretty high velocity, high pressure environment?

Kate: You know, giving yourself a break, right? I try and make sure that in the off-season I get as much time off as I need, right? That's really important. Making sure that, you know, employees during the off-season use their vacation time. Routine is big for me. Like every morning, you know, I tend to have my time with my coffee and I try and do yoga, you know, maybe it's only 10, 15, 20 minutes, but at least it's a time where I can. And take care of your body too, right? Standing all day is uncomfortable, so that really helps in that. And just researching, right? Reading books, listening to podcasts about how different strategies that different people take, different chefs take, that kind of stuff.

Josiah: I'm always looking for recommendations. Is there any podcasts or books you've enjoyed recently?

Kate: I have not taken a dive in, but Rick Rubin has a book about creativity that I just got, and Will Guidara, obviously his book on reasonable hospitality was awesome. I listen to David Chang's podcast every once in a while.

Josiah: Those are all really good recommendations. I'd encourage our listeners to check them out. I guess the other piece of leadership that's interesting to me is, and you touched on this a little bit, but I wonder if you could elaborate on how you encourage your teams to be creative and bold. And you mentioned allowing them to create menus or elements of a menu. Are there other things that you do to sort of unleash kind of creativity or help them perform at their best?

Kate: I have like probably 75 cookbooks on property that they can look at. If I see something like on Instagram or some magazine, I like to show them a lot or I'll give them ideas of something. If I see something that looks like a trend, then you know I'll pass it along but you know especially with the younger kids they see a lot of things on you know social media that they'll be like oh you see this, and I especially at the diner give them a lot of freedom to kind of play with specials and a lot of our specials that they came up with over the winter ended up being on menu items for the summer so like that, especially like playing with specials is like definitely the best way for them to feel it out, right? Get an idea of what does work, what doesn't work, what's going to sell, what's not going to sell. So then getting an idea, it's not just me being like, no, that's not going to work. But, like, remember when we ran that as a special, and nobody bought it, that kind of thing?

Josiah: Is there a special that you can share that you thought was kind of fun and creative and was a hit with your guests?

Kate: say last summer at the ocean club we just did a regular like jersey tomato sandwich just bread mayo and tomato that went over really well as simple as it is August good tomato time I mean it was just perfect hot on the pool deck I'm trying to think what they did over at the diner that worked out well we did french toast tacos so it's using a piece of french toast as a taco shell with scrambled eggs and bacon jam yeah so that one was one that they were like what that sounds weird and then we did it as a special and it kind of like caught a little wave and then ended up on the menu.

Josiah: I hope it's a special December as well. I feel like I need to get on a plane to experience that. You got me feeling hungry already. I love that. Thanks for giving us a little view into your business and how you operate. I wonder if we could kind of take a step back and just look at hospitality broadly. I'm curious what you're seeing or hearing about what's going on in hospitality broadly in your view. You know, what are maybe some big challenges that you're seeing or opportunities that you see happening in the world of hospitality?

Kate: I think staffing has been definitely the hardest challenge since the pandemic. It's seemingly getting a little bit easier now, but those last two to three summers, it's just been really hard to find, you know, cooks and good cooks. And I stay in close contact with our local culinary school at the community college, which is where I went. And we went from, I think, 65 to 90 graduates when I graduated 11 years ago. So I think they just graduated 24 people. So it's just like a lack of interest in the industry. And then, you know, that comes from all of the things that we've been trying to rebalance low wages, time that like just time the time that you have to work and all those little things like a PTO you know all of low health insurance all that is kind of contributed to people not even entering the industry or leaving and never coming back. I have some friends recently that have left, just were fed up, like tired of working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and I'll find something different to do. I think that is our biggest struggle, right? Just One, managing our hours and wages so that they're, you know, competitive and that we're not, you know, working people that much. And yeah, just, just training them up so that we can get it. Just, you know, having, you know, letting people know like, Hey, we have good wages. You have PTO, we have insurance on that kind of thing. I think that's changing, right? That's more, more available. Yeah, for sure.

Josiah: I wonder, well, you corrected maybe some of the misconceptions that are out there. Things have changed on some of these wages, PTO, things like that. Are there other misconceptions that you want to set the record straight on or maybe underappreciated or overlooked aspects of the work that you're doing? Because you mentioned even like the graduates coming through. It's not even people leaving, but there's less interest in graduates. I guess I feel like I'm on a bit of a PR campaign.

Kate: I mean like using your creativity right we may not be like painting a picture recording music but in the place that we're putting out and there's like some artistic you know value behind it i don't think that the work is quiet as you know it's not as hot and screaming as it used to be, right? Like while it's still hot, it's not, you know, you don't have, you know, angry and little angry chefs screaming at you all day long, which I think maybe like from movies and TV shows, people think that that's what it's like all the time. And it's not while it can get a little testy. I don't think that, you know, that that's what happens every day. You know, teamwork, right? I think for me, I was an athlete in high school and college and playing, like working in the kitchen, it's kind of like being on a team, right? Like you need the guy on set to saute to do his job. You need the guy on Friday to do his job. You need, you know, the expo or this to do their job, the servers, right? So I kind of like that aspect of it. You know, coaching people up is something that I enjoy, you know, seeing these some of these guys come in and not really understanding anything and then going to be able to run the line or go on to sous chef or chef positions. That's really good to see. Yeah, and it's fun. If everyone's doing their job and everything is running smoothly, it's a really fun thing to do.