The Untapped Potential of Catering to Kids, Teens & Families in Hospitality - Alicia Zur-Szpiro & Saar Shai, Wanderland

Josiah (00:00:00):
Catering to kids, teens, and families might be the biggest untapped opportunity in hospitality today. In this episode, we explore how hotels can go beyond traditional offerings to create memorable experiences that engage young guests and drive family loyalty. We have some amazing guests to walk us through this today.

[intro]

Alicia (00:01:38):
We are probably quite unusual for your show because we don't come from a background of hospitality at all. We come from quite a different field, and that's toys and games and kids publishing and innovation and entrepreneurship. So a lot of what we've done is really with a focus on game design, toy invention, looking at the kids industries, and you've obviously done entrepreneurship and startups and we've worked together quite a lot over the past years.

Saar (00:02:10):
So yeah, is quite new to us. We're more guests than hosts at this point, but we're very eager to learn and we believe we have a lot to teach.

Josiah (00:02:20):
Well, why hospitality? I think I love hospitality. Everyone on the show loves hospitality. You have built a business that is now focusing on hospitality. Why hospitality of all the areas you could focus on.

Saar (00:02:31):
So for myself, one of the interesting thing that I was looking at is actually artificial intelligence and the whole recent and forthcoming shockwaves and looking at the future of my career, kind our business, and finding hospitality actually quite a solid anchor in this uncertainty that's going to come where it's still going to be about people and that's where it felt right to kind of start explore.

Alicia (00:03:11):
I've always loved hotels, even when I'm not going on trips, I kind of obsess over beautiful hotels or interesting destinations. So it's kind of always been lurking there in the background. And I think after these years of working on fun and games and having kids ourselves, we sort of just arrived at this point where we felt like we'd spotted an area where kids are, and yet not much is happening for kids. So in contrast to the industries that we came from, where it's such a well-trodden path and there's so much innovation and so much creativity coming out of those spaces, we were noticing that even though families and children and teenagers are going on holiday, the way that they are catered for still feels quite traditional. So we love the idea of taking our creative flair and bringing it to an industry that doesn't have as much going on. And could

Josiah (00:04:17):
I want to hear more about that creative flare? I think you both have a very interesting story in that, but I want to stay a little bit on this moment of where you decide to focus on hospitality. It sounds like it was observation over time. Sorry. You mentioned seeing the evolution of ai, the emergence of this could present a need to refocus. Was there a pivotal moment that made you realize hotels need specialized expertise in serving kids and kids' experiences?

Saar (00:04:44):
Well, it was a very interesting experience being pulled into this world, picking up the kind of books of the industry. The most recent one is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara and it really spoke to me, even though it's about a restaurant, it really kind of shares a lot of these principles that we use in game design and to invention and having all that kind of knowledge. As I was reading about the Experience economy for example, which is also a great book and a great discipline realizing that hospitality in a way it is age old and yet there is still so much to do and so much is being done and wanting to be part of it.

Alicia (00:05:37):
I think there was one moment where it sort of hit us. Actually two summers ago we were driving, we are based in the uk. We were driving across Europe from the UK to Switzerland, and halfway through our trip we stopped for a night at what can only be described as a motorway hotel. So we had different motorways thundering past the hotel, but this was our pit stop for a night and we kind of managed our kids' expectations. This isn't the final destination, it's just somewhere to rest our head. And at check-in our daughter was presented with a little wooden and she couldn't get over the fact that they had something for her. We'd said, this isn't a kid-friendly hotel necessarily. And yet they had a little memento for her. And then our journey continues. We get to Switzerland, we're staying in a beautiful village called Ascona on Lake Maggiore, and we're saying to our daughter, look at the lake, look at the view.

(00:06:42):
Look at this beautiful hotel that we've arrived at. And all she could think about was this little wooden yo-yo that she got at the motorway hotel. And that's not the point. I suppose what the point is is that when we had such low expectations, when we weren't expecting to be delighted or amazed, there was a brief interaction or a little moment of magic that captivated our daughter much more than the beautiful lakes of Switzerland and Italy ever could. I think for us it was just a real moment of saying when we turn things on their head or when we deliver the unexpected, when we transform a child's experience, it actually transforms the family's experience to the point where our daughter insisted that we go back to that motorway hotel the following year and we did. We went back to the motorway hotel just because our daughter loved that.

Saar (00:07:39):
We go back every year, we have a collection of these yo-yos,

Josiah (00:07:43):
We talk about a high return on investment. I love it. Well, I feel like in this conversation there's an opportunity for us to talk about a whole range of ways to engage kids, engage families, but sorry, I want to loop back to something that you mentioned because I feel I've had unreasonable hospitality recommended to me so many times it comes up. But you mentioned something that caught my attention that was that there were principles of game design that you saw parallels to in some of that work. I wonder if you could speak a little bit to that. That's fascinating. I've never heard a perspective like that. So tell me about some of those principles of game design.

Saar (00:08:17):
I'll try to talk about the ones that are relevant more to hospitality and how we translate it. There's a lot of innovation and experimentation, especially with the recent boom in board gaming and communities of enthusiasts. And one of the things that for example, board games are doing is instead of having a single game station, they're basically creating a multiple session experience where a bunch of players come back each week or after a while to continue. And that's something that kind of is a talking point. It's kind of like watching the same show. It is part of the culture of that group and looking at hotels for example, where typically there's a front loading of the welcoming gift, so you get a reception and as extravagant as it is, there's a real drop off because you're definitely staying for more than one day. And we are looking at really this principle of stagger where instead of this kind of one off, there's really an opportunity to build that relationship over time, weaving it with the same theme and story, which games do so well.

Josiah (00:09:41):
Alicia, I'd love to hear from you as well as you reflect back on your career so far, have there been things that come to mind that you're really excited about bringing into the world of hospitality, things you've been working on or seeing over your career?

Alicia (00:09:54):
And this might go towards some of the other things that we're going to discuss, but I think the thing that we're really feeling excited about now is spotlighting teens, teenagers and tweens. Because I think when the hospitality industry thinks about younger guests, they think about infants, they think about kids, and then there's this real kind of, I don't want to say blindness, but certainly an opportunity to include that slightly older age range. And so I think we feel really excited having come from the world of designing products and games and even mechanics that speak to that slightly older age range to unpick the things that get teens excited. And I think we feel there's so much kind of disillusionment with how teams are sort of wedded to their devices and how it's all very digital. And actually from our experience of designing or prototyping or play testing games with teens, we see how much they love that kind of tactile response, the physical, the analog, the traditional. And I think it's really interesting to think about that sort of tension between being pulled into the digital social sphere whilst also being drawn to that more traditional discipline of gameplay. So I think for us, bringing that mindset and experience of how to get teams excited about things that might feel a little bit classic rather than digital feels like a really interesting tension to explore.

Saar (00:11:43):
And just to say that we also in the report really got into that kind of special segment, the teens and considering they're a scary segment and a tough nut to crack, but so worth it as far as their influence on travel decision in the family and the way that they're plugged in is kind of well known. And indeed, the fact that they are not targeted in a way is astounding, especially considering their pull and their power.

Josiah (00:12:16):
I'm glad you mentioned that. It actually is a perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about. I want to get into a deep dive into all the ways this can look, but I feel like we're going to get so carried away on that that I want to first set a little bit of the business case for this. So for our listeners, for hospitality leaders, and you'll listen to us talk about this, why should they think about this? Why should they be investing in this? I'm curious how we might I guess, create a business case around making investments in this area.

Alicia (00:12:42):
So I think there's a few reasons. I'll tackle a couple and then you can, I think one of the things that we think about a lot is the kids and the teens are there anyway. They're coming to the hotels. We are not having to draw them in another kind of market segment. They're tagging along with their parents, so we've got them in the room and yet there isn't really much that's happening for them to engage with or for them to spend money on. So when we're thinking about, and these are all terms that we are learning, so forgive us, but when it comes to things like RevPAR, obviously there's such a bidding war for how we can get guests to spend a bit more money and seems like adults are kind of maxing out. There's only so many glasses of champagne they can order with their dinner.

(00:13:34):
I might be surprised, but I feel like there's an upper ceiling to that. There's only so many times they can upgrade their room when it comes to kids, when it comes to teenagers, the A limit because there isn't anything for them to spend money on. So we think that given that they're coming on these trips, they're at the hotel, they've got some spending power, they might even have some spending money, let's try to find roots and avenues for them to actually spend their money on. It's sort of a no-brainer when it comes to adding to the spend of the trip.

Josiah (00:14:08):
I think you're going to be speaking the language of a lot of our listeners, this is very top of mind for the hospitality industry now, is how do we drive incremental revenue growth? And I have talked to a number of people recently that have confirmed what you just said where it feels like we're kind of pulling all of the levers that we are and we need new channels, new opportunities. So this is very exciting.

Alicia (00:14:31):
Well, I was just going to say with that also comes the idea of the network that kids bring, the industries that kids bring, the partnerships that kids and teens can bring. So obviously the idea of brand association and brand partnerships is nothing new to the travel industry, but when it comes to the kids industries, it's only beginning. So if we think of the massive media companies, the toy companies, the game companies, the video gaming market, these are hundreds of billion dollar industries that are sort of ripe for the taking. And if the hospitality industry and if hotels can borrow a little bit of that value, then it is just so advantageous for a hotel. So when we think about using kids and teens as the kind of anchor or the catalyst for bringing in those different relationships and streams of revenue, there's that additional opportunity for hotels commercially as well

Saar (00:15:29):
Because these kids brands have such a vested interest in what actually hotels have to offer. And the way that we look at it is hotels can become the new media. So hotels have space and attention, they have people paying to basically give their attention to the hotel. And in industries where a fortune is spent on every kind of type of engagement, partnering with hotel, the right partnership can really benefit the hotel commercially and also from a brand value perspective.

Alicia (00:16:10):
And I think with that also comes the idea of actually because there are relatively few hotels or groups focusing on kids and teens, it's pretty cheap right now to win that segment. So the ROI is actually really high because it doesn't take much as I said with a yo-yo anecdote from earlier, it doesn't take that much to delight a child, whether it's a yo-yo or a story that's presented in a really interesting way or a little set of games and toys or whatever it is, it's so much cheaper than renovating the lobby or building another wing or a spa or bringing in a Michelin star chef. All of these things that need to cut through the noise when it comes to grownups are hugely expensive. And when it comes to kids, because there is so little that's being done, it doesn't take very much to stand out and to grab that market share. So actually, even though it's a kind of new spend for hotels, it's a very minimal spend for hotels when you think about what they can gain.

Saar (00:17:21):
And as far as brand loyalty, I can assure you that our daughter is going to remember the name of that hotel for the rest of her life. And in the report we're also tops and about indeed there's this myopia where the parents are the ones who pay, but it's the kids that are often the ones who spend. And there was a survey by Expedia group where they looked at family decisions and what they found is that in 67% of households, the ideas for the trip actually come from the kids. So that's a significant factor. There's also a survey by the Family Travel Association and what they found is that the destinations are picked by 70%. So 70% of household pick their destinations involving the kids. It's quite astounding that these numbers are actually there, and yet it's all about marketing to the parents and it's marketing, whether it's offsite, so on the digital platforms and doing the stay. And yet the power and influence lie equally if not more in the hands of the kids.

Josiah (00:18:51):
That's fascinating. I mean, just hearing you talk about the potential opportunity, hearing some of the numbers behind it, I know we had a bit of a discussion guide here, but I feel like from what you shared, Alicia, it seems it may be best to think about this almost in not kids as a monolith, but I think you were talking about these different segments of tweens and teenagers. So we can go as I guess specific as you want, but I wonder maybe if we help our listeners get a sense of this by kind of walking through the different groups again in whatever age chunk that you want, whether it's infants and toddlers or where we want to start. But I guess I'd be curious to get your sense of what are they looking for, what's going to make them happy if there's misconceptions around this? Does that sound good to I guess break this down into more detail?

Alicia (00:19:39):
Yeah, I mean I think there's a lot of questions there and we'll try to pick it apart because as you said, there's just such a wealth of information and thinking around all of this. So I think there's first of all misconceptions or thinking that we can do around segmenting by age, which I think some hotels are starting to do. But I think there's a long way still to go and then we can think about the misconceptions about what it is that makes kids happy, whatever the age. So I think when it comes to age segmenting, from what we've seen of the industry, it looks like we're looking at infants zero to three and then kids maybe four to eight, four to nine. And that's sort of where it ends. So first of all, we know that a 4-year-old is wildly different from a 9-year-old, and I would always argue that we try to divide that age bracket into smaller sections.

(00:20:39):
I think by and large the kind of fallback or the fail safe for hotels is a coloring book and a teddy bear. And as we kind of navigated this space, we were sort of thinking, what is a 14-year-old boy going to do with a coloring book or a teddy bear? And we asked the hotel, so what do you have for teens? And time and time again the answer came back nothing. So I think one of the misconceptions I suppose is that teens don't matter or they'll be satisfied with whatever it is a six-year-old is satisfied with. And I suppose coming from our experience in these kids' industries, we know how nuanced their preferences and their differences are. And especially with teens, if we get it wrong, we get it really, really wrong. It would be kind of painful for a teenager to be offered a teddy bear. It would just be so humiliating. And so teens time and time again are sort of left standing there as part of this family group with nothing that's happening for them. The parents are getting a glass of champagne, the little sibling is getting a teddy bear, and this 13-year-old is just kind of left wanting. So I think there's a lot of thinking to be done about teens. And then before I jump into the next thing, I dunno whether there's anything you want to say about teens as well, but

Saar (00:22:08):
No, I think that that's exactly it. It's quite fascinating how that there is this segment that everyone knows about and yet it's kind of nothing is done yet.

Alicia (00:22:23):
And then I guess to the second part of your question, thinking about the misconceptions of what it is that actually makes kids happy, I think in this respect, kids are people and the same sorts of things that make grownups feel valued, feel attended to is the same as a child or a teenager. And I think so often with kids we feel like we just have to throw enough stuff at them. And I, I'm talking, I am aware that we have a wall of games and toys and paraphernalia, which slightly undermines my point, but I think a lot of hotels feel like, okay, we've given them a teddy bear, we've given them the welcome immunity, there's the kids' toiletries in the bathroom, we've done our job. We can kind of rest easy. Actually, I think that kids have got their own gear, especially if we're looking at the luxury segment.

(00:23:26):
These are very privileged children that have lovely toys and games and actually to be handed yet another frozen doll, which is lying on their bed when they walk through the door, I think feels a little bit anticlimactic. And I think are looking for those experiences and interactions and moments of connection and meaning for kids and teens as much as we are for adults. I think it's the moments that matter and I think it's the relationships that matter. It's not the stuff that matters. So first of all, if we are giving stuff to the kids, let's not just kind of chuck it at them at arrival. Let's think sensitively about what it is that we're giving it, what we're giving why, where, who's giving it. Let's try to unpack that whole kind of gifting amen moment so that we are layering it with value and meaning and memory.

Saar (00:24:29):
I think one of a very interesting key insight to understand is that kids can pick up on these things. They might be little, but they're not stupid. They know that this is the corporate basket with the coloring book that is outdated by, it's the Disney movie that was last year. They know that thought was not put into it or that they're not valued as much. And one of the key example that we give is for example, the kids' menu. So that's from the kind of dining and restaurants aspect of it where I don't think we found a single kids' menu that was not smaller and is a printed kind of disposable, disposable, quickly printed, add-on and kids pick up on this, kids pick up on the fact that this is a secondary afterthought that they've gotten. And it's a really kind of keen understanding to see the kid knows, the kid is there to know and it doesn't need much in order to kind of make them feel it's kind of a word or just that extra little nice touch to make them feel okay, they paid attention to me here. They did something for me.

Alicia (00:25:56):
I mean, one of our jokes going to that point is the parents get this beautiful leather bound menu and then the child gets this kind of a four printed paper and we were imagining a scenario where the adult gets its lovely leather bound menu and then the child gets an even bigger one. We just love the idea of having a bit of fun yet also respecting our guests in the room. There's no reason that the format for a kid's menu couldn't be as impressive if not more impressive if not more interactive and more surprising than an adult's menu. And with that little subversion, we are just kind of flooring the family. Imagine a family's reaction to the child. I'm not saying them the wine menu, but give them that kind of same gravitas or SPECT that you give the adult that gets the honor of the wine menu. So I think there's something really interesting about how do we not only bring the child's experience up to the same level as grownups but even exceed it? Because what that does for the whole family is momentous.

Saar (00:27:05):
And that's important to mention, which is that will grab the attention of the parent who would be delighted that you kind of grow the extra mile for their child even more than if you do it for them.

Josiah (00:27:16):
It's a great point. I feel like I'm so fascinated by what does it take to create something worth talking about? And what I'm hearing from you is thinking across the experience at a hotel, where can you bring creativity? Where can you make kids feel special? I guess I'm fascinated by experience design, and I'm curious how you think about that. Are there elements of the guests stay that are especially important to focus on or stand out to you?

Alicia (00:27:42):
Yeah, I mean I think as we've referenced, a lot of what happens for kids is at the first opportunity they walk through the door and it's the moment that happens at check-in and maybe it's the moment that happens when they enter the room and then there's a real drop off in attention. And also picking up on what SAR said about kids being very intuitive and very perceptive, they can feel that they are no longer the main event. So something that we think a lot about is how can we create those moments of attention and impact and significance throughout the stay, not only at that kind of first welcome. And then with that, we are also thinking about all the things that happen for adults throughout a stay of which there are many, all the things that adults get, all the things that adults do, and thinking about how we can have the comparable kids or teens experience at every point. So whenever it is that an adult gets something, whether it's the key to the room or the laundry bag that seems so boring and banal to an adult is actually fascinating and exciting for a child. So if we take all of those seemingly irrelevant moments or pieces of hotel apparatus and think about what that can mean for a child, if we create an experience around it, then there's just so many opportunities to have those moments of visibility and appreciation for those younger guests.

Saar (00:29:18):
I think experience design is a great way to put it because hotels have this very unique experience profile of multiple days. And one of the things that we find fascinating is that the intimacy that hotels naturally have or that guests naturally have at hotels where one of the things you do know and you can talk about data collection and kind of personalization, but you do know that these kids are waking up at your hotel and a child waking up is a magical moment. It's Christmas morning, it's a tooth fairy, let's see what happened. And it's such a great opportunity to create what we would like to be traditions that are starting now and will really be something that kids naturally expect from a hotel stay that can kind of even integrate into the culture into stories and films and books where this thing is happening at hotels.

Josiah (00:30:26):
I appreciate you bolstering what you did because the notion of kind of overlaying a kid-friendly experience over the journey of experiencing a hotel that I think a lot of hospitality professionals put a lot of time and money into, it almost feels like this entree into thinking about this. You think about because people are maniacal about thinking about all these little moments for adults, I feel. So almost this seems like one way to get started is think about all these touch points you've already invested so much time and thought into. And I think even your menu example is a good example of that because there's probably a whole set of meetings that took place on that leather menu cover. And if you take some of the creativity and think about what is this moment, but the kid is great, but I think what you mentioned star is also interesting. There are some touch points. It feels like waking up. I mean I like waking up in the morning, but probably not as much as a kid does. And I feel like there's thinking about some of those moments that might be unique to kids, I think it's also really helpful to think about.

Alicia (00:31:25):
I think what's also really interesting about that is as you said, as an adult, waking up is no great pleasure or joy. And I think when we experience the world through our kids' eyes, it gives us untold pleasure and we experience these moments of magic in a way that we can't possibly really do on our own anymore. So even waking up in a beautiful hotel setting with an incredible view, we're happy, we're delighted, our money is well spent, but the joy that a child feels is exponentially higher and if we can add to the child's joy, we selfishly feel that for ourselves in a way that we couldn't without the eyes of a child. So when we're trying to also win over the parents, when we think about the kids, it's right there for an opportunity to build that relationship with the parents as well. And in fact,

Saar (00:32:27):
In the report we're kind of going into travel decisions and we mentioned how much kids influence the decision actively, but also the choices that the parents do and in fact the spend that they invest in order to make the holiday perfect, it's really not for them when it's the whole family. It's really to really impress the kids. And there's some surveys that are really interesting about what parents would like their kids to get out of a holiday exposure to the culture and quality time together. And that's something that we're really trying to bring and have the hotel have some participation that some place in this and that will build the relationship for many years. And it's interesting to think about also when you talk about the relationship, not just the stay itself. One of the things that we are looking at is the anticipation phase and the post stay phase. So kids in particular, the dissipation is even more than the actual experience and the idea that the child is going to spend time at your property to be able to basically initiate the relationship even before the child comes can really cement the hotel's, place the brand's place as something that's really part of the life of the child.

Josiah (00:34:14):
I love that. I will include a link in the show notes, but I wonder if you could speak just a little bit about this report that you referenced because I'd like for people to access it. Tell me a little bit about the report. What was the origin of it, what does it include and let's tell 'em a little bit about that.

Alicia (00:34:31):
I think the report came from understanding this unique position that we found ourselves in of really looking at the intersection between hospitality and the hotel industry and the kids industries and what the innovation that's coming out of those industries. And I kind of really think about it as a Venn diagram where there's so much that the hospitality industry is incredible at, as we just said, when it comes to the meticulous and exquisite detailed planning for adults, there's nothing like a beautiful luxury hotel for anticipating every need. And then when it comes to creativity and innovation and joy and playfulness, you really want to look to the kids' industries, how they're building those relationships and kind of just forging those lifelong attachments to games and toys and

Saar (00:35:29):
Stories and characters engagement in top of mind, which video games are very good at.

Alicia (00:35:35):
So yeah, we just kind of found ourselves sitting in this space that it didn't seem like anyone else was really looking at, and we've really dived into that very focused segment over the past year plus and we just feel like it's an exciting opportunity for hotels to do things a bit more imaginatively, to do things that their competitors aren't doing to borrow tricks of the trade from this completely different world that has so much application in hospitality. It's a real kind of

Saar (00:36:16):
Cambrian explosion of taking these two industries that were heath too separate in looking at it in combination and just the the sheer number of things that we can create for the benefit of both industries for a really win-win or a triple win if you include the kids and the guests is really something that it's a driving force for us every day.

Alicia (00:36:46):
I think we also know from talking to our partners and friends on the kids side of things, that there's a real appetite and interest for them as well to look to hospitality as a new space. It's not retail, it's not online, it's not in a home yet it's this other place that feels so integral to a family's year or lifecycle. So it felt like there was real excitement and interest coming from that world that we also wanted to help introduce 'em to hospitality. So I think we just came to this report thinking we've amassed this wealth of really specialist knowledge because we've got a foot in both of those camps and it feels so beneficial for both industries to take note of each other, learning from each other, partnering with each other, that we sort of just wanted to share that opportunity, that creativity, that excitement.

Saar (00:37:44):
And we wanted to put down in a more formal way the findings that we're kind of coming across as far as how significant kits are as decision makers, influencers, that they might not have a credit card, but they are the ones who purchase in a way or drive the purchase. So we wanted to give a very clear picture where you can't ignore kids anymore because this is really something that's now in the industry and a force to be reckoned with.

Alicia (00:38:26):
I think early on in this kind of lifecycle, we got connected to Bahar Wally, who was extremely supportive of this kind of little niche that we'd found. And he sort of said, and I'm paraphrasing, I'm really paraphrasing here because he basically said something like, kids are the industry's dirty little secret. That sounds really wrong, but I think you know what I mean, which is the industry knows that they need to be doing more for kids, more for teens, and yet they don't really know how, it's kind of like a headache. And we discussed much to our amusement with him that hotels do more for pets and for dogs than they do for kids. There's always a pet section on a website. You can barely find a kid section on a website. Anyway, so we spoke to him about it and we realized that hotels and hoteliers kind of know that they need to start doing more.

(00:39:25):
They're getting left behind when it comes to the things that are occupying kids' attentions and minds, and yet they don't really know what to do. We've got these brilliant guest experience teams who are working on every aspect and facet of the hotel, and yet they're also being expected to be experts in delighting that these very tough little customers of kids and teens. And I think this was the moment where we said, you don't have to do it alone. There is an entire massive industry there that knows kids and teens inside and out. So by forging these links and by bridging these two industries, there is such mutual benefit that can be gained, and we really love the idea of being part of that experience.

Josiah (00:40:14):
Amazing. Well, I'll include a link in the show notes where people can learn more. I am thinking about how to connect some of the dots of what you both have shared both in terms of some of the opportunity. I'm thinking back, Alicia, what you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation around teens in some cases are attracted to some analog experiences having spent so much time on screens. I'm thinking to what you mentioned, Sarah, in terms of game design, how do you build relationship over time? And I'm also thinking on a personal level, it's been a while since I've been a kid, so I'm trying to, I think for myself and for our listeners, almost kind of build that empathy into sort of entering, I mean when I was a kid it was also a little bit different. I guess if I had to frame it as a question, I'd be curious on your general thoughts. I'd love to hear from both of you, what is going on in culture, in entertainment media, kids, brands that our listeners should keep in mind to build this empathy and think about this world that kids are living in because I think that might be a catalyst for creativity and thinking about solutions. So I would love to hear both of your thoughts on that.

Saar (00:41:18):
So Ben Kaufman is the founder of camp, the experience toy shop, and anyone who doesn't know should look them up, they're just amazing. They really reinvented the experience of a toy shop and he's talking about how media and entertainment companies are trying to shift more to retail. There's the kind of digital wallet of the subscription and the films, but they're trying to expand more towards the physical. On the other hand, retails are trying to attract more commerce through bringing more of the kind of ip, the kind of assets, the characters, the stories. And it's a real interesting point in time where through technology, all of it merges together. But even though all these new technologies and new ways of interacting and new ways of shopping are popping out, if you look historically, Disney is a great example. Disney has its hospitality and has its media and entertainment and is cashing out on both even from the days of Disneyland.

(00:42:37):
And one of the interesting stories is that Wal Disney actually financed the building of Disneyland with a deal with NBC where he produced a show for them where he was the actual host. And that was really a way for him to benefit because that financed the park, but it also actually promoted the park because a lot of the content on the show was basically based on the rise that they were going to have. So it was a master stroke of business as he was a visionary. And we really think that there's magic in that combination, which Disney knows how to do, but Netflix don't have their parks, but they have wonderful characters and shows and films that are just not finding the maximum expression in the physical world, in the hospitality world. And that's where we're aiming.

Alicia (00:43:43):
I think I would add to that by also saying these kids industries, kids brands are phenomenal at fostering loyalty and that isn't mirrored when it comes to hotels and hospitality for kids. It certainly is when it comes to adults, a hotel group loyalty scheme is fundamentally important, but there's no, as we were talking about, there's no comparable experience for kids. So we've also been looking at how that loyalty that is so easily accrued when it comes to video games or a connection to a beloved character or movie franchise where a child is going to cue in line for days until the next game console is released or movie installment is released. How can we take some of that goodwill and port that over to the hospitality industry? So we're also really thinking about loyalty when it comes to the capacity that kids have to attach themselves to a brand.

Saar (00:44:52):
And in a way we are designing these amenities, these activations and experiences, but we're also designing relationships. We're also designing lifelong relationships between the hotel and the child growing up and then becoming their own travelers.

Josiah (00:45:08):
Such is interesting. I feel like I was talking earlier today to someone who is in a business where long-term, almost generational customer relationships matter a lot more than the typical hotel. I think regardless of where our listeners are working, this is a really important thing to think about because I think what you both are speaking to in Alicia you just mentioned is this building affinity, building loyalty. I mean, you can kind of bribe people into loyalty through points, but real loyalty, the sort of loyalty where I'm going to choose this hotel or the loyalty where your child loved the yo-yo, and now you're going back to that's real loyalty and I think that should be the goal of our listeners to think about how do I delight people so much that it's not bribery that's pulling me back. I want to be there again because such a good experience.

Alicia (00:45:54):
Yeah, absolutely.

Saar (00:45:55):
Yeah, I think that I've heard the term actually from Bahar. It's from often not loyalty, it's bribery. And really the idea is to create these relationships and a child's ability to connect to a character, to a story is so strong that it just begs the kind of carrying it over to hotels where as I mentioned before, there is this intimacy with the guest and when it comes to entertainment and media that they create these powerful stories and these powerful characters that really resonate with kids. And yet hotels for kids remain faceless in a way, and it's what the child kind of finds for themselves that kind of really trigger the memories and where we want hotels to take a more proactive approach to that.

Josiah (00:46:58):
I want to get into some practical next steps for our listeners, but I want to loop back to one thing that you mentioned around building these relationships. I think you mentioned something to the effect of data collection or preferences collection. Is there anything unique in this environment our listeners should keep in mind? Or is it the typical if you hear something from your guests, save it in some sort of system? Is there any special considerations or ways of saving preferences or collecting these preferences our listeners should think about?

Saar (00:47:27):
Do you mean as far as data collection and data collection restrictions and customer relationship

Josiah (00:47:33):
Management restrictions? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I am thinking because I imagine there's an element of service that is independent of the age of your guest, right? It is like if you hear or observe something, you're noting it down somewhere. But so yeah, you can take this anywhere you want to go. I dunno if it's in a legal direction or just in general for becoming more attentive and capturing these.

Saar (00:47:55):
So we have solution when it comes to the digital and lot, it actually comes by leaning into the restriction and basically understanding that hotels are more analog experiences in digital and not necessarily just because the default is a CRM or a management system that hotel uses that is on the computer. There's no need. That's just because it's there, but it doesn't actually need to be the implementation. The other thing about, let's call it data collection is that we've spoken to hotels and worked with some hotels and some of them do send question or questions over in order to learn about the child. And mostly it's uninspired. And what we think is actually it's a missed opportunity because the hotel is interested in the child, the hotel wants to know more about the child. Why is it kind of such a formal two questions, let's see if they like Harry Potter or frozen, let's make that part of the experience. Let's make it fun for the child and the parent to answer. The parent is also delighted that you're interested in the child. It's interesting because as you know, hospitality, the more you kind of know, the more you connect with a guest, the more you can create this magic. And we kind of designed ways where that is not just something that technically needs to be part of the post booking process, but actually in and of itself, part of the fun.

Alicia (00:49:43):
I would also kind of counter that and say particularly when it comes to luxury hotels, that they put so much pressure on themselves to pinpoint the child's specific interests, which football team do they support so that we can have the jersey waiting for them, which princess do they love so that we can have the right tiara waiting for them. And whilst that is such a beautiful thought, it feels, and I hate to be critical, but it feels a little uninspired. And I also think that because that's sort of been the mode that hotels have been using for a while, the kids are clocking onto it. And I don't think we need to go down that route of ultra personalization to make it feel like a personal experience. And I think that when you bring aspects of storytelling or surprise or as we said before, subverting the expected, it can actually be so much more impactful than having your name embroidered on a pillow or a dressing game, especially

Saar (00:50:48):
Your name on a game that is actually three years old and no longer popular the child. It's like a restaurant that serves this amazing fine dining cuisine, but the toilet extincts, you'll pick up on it.

Alicia (00:51:06):
So we're kind of putting a lot of pressure on hotels, but we're also trying to alleviate some of the pressure as well.

Josiah (00:51:12):
No, it makes a lot of sense to me. So I'd love to spend a few moments talking about where our listeners can go from here. Let's say we have somebody who's listening, working at a hotel or hotel company, says, I'm excited by this. I see potential here. Where do I get started? I wonder if we could walk through first steps and then maybe some steps after that as they go through that journey of, I dunno if you want to call it maturity, but moving forward. But what would be some starting points or pieces of advice you'd recommend?

Alicia (00:51:39):
So I think there's a few questions that I've figured out hotels can ask themselves as a starting point. Number one, do they have anything for teens? Is there anything that feels comfortable for a 12, 13, 14, 16-year-old young adult to receive? So if there's nothing going on for teens, that feels like such an important place to start because teens are the most powerful segment when it comes to kids in their family. They're the most socially connected, they've got the most social pool when it comes to their friends and their network, and they're that much closer to becoming guests in their own rights and travelers. So I think the first question for hotels is look at what you're offering for kids, whether it's gifts, amenities, provisions, kids menus, whatever it is, and check whether you've got something that feels appropriate, dignified, intriguing for a teenager. The second thing to think about is, are you doing anything,

Josiah (00:52:42):
Alicia? Can I jump in there? Can I just jump in for a quick question? So what would be a quick way to sort of pressure test that it meets some of this criteria? You mentioned attractive, dignified. How should people be thinking about it meeting that

Alicia (00:52:55):
Criteria? I think the best way to check if something will appeal to teens is if it will appeal to adults, because obviously we're not going to give the full adult experience to a teenager, but a teenager does not want to be spoken to like a child. And actually when we're designing things for teenagers, we're asking ourselves, would this make sense for a 21-year-old? Would this make sense for a 45-year-old? Can you see a grand par or a kind of tattooed rap star doing this? And I think the answer has to be yes, we want it to feel like it's something that feels sovereign and grown up. Yes, it might be something that we only offer to teenagers, but it can't smack of the tween teen mindset that so many of us impose on these poor young people

Saar (00:53:53):
Coming from publishing a lot, the kind of pandering and the kind of, we think that we get you because we watched a few TikTok videos and now we know what you care about. It doesn't need to be so complicated. As Alicia mentioned, if you would give that happily to an adult or if a grownup wouldn't be interested in it, then most likely you kind of covered,

Alicia (00:54:23):
But we're not saying give it to the grownup. We're saying that's something that's just for teens, but it should feel like it's something that a grownup would be comfortable doing. And that's when the teens will start to be interested because they basically want to be doing what the adults are doing. They want to think of themselves as grownups. So we're trying to create things that are specifically for teens, but with the mindset that it needs to be something that wouldn't feel out of place for an adult to also participate in.

Josiah (00:54:51):
I appreciate you going into detail. I am so curious about the mechanics of how this works. So thanks. So that was kind of step one about what you have for teens.

Alicia (00:54:59):
So that's step one. Step two is when you're looking at kids or teens or whoever it is, are you doing something that extends beyond that first welcome moment? So we spoken earlier about how hotels typically front load the kids' experience. It happens the moment they walk through the doors, here's the teddy bear, here's a coloring book. And then there's very little that happens beyond that. So I think for hotels, it's a real quick win to think about 1, 2, 3 other moments that happen in the lifecycle of a stay or the child's journey as we call it, and find a moment or a way to connect with a child that isn't just check-in moment. So is it when they come down for dinner on their first evening? Is it when they leave for their adventure out of the hotel? Is it when they're going to bed? Is it when they're checking out?

(00:55:50):
Is it before they arrive? Is it after they've left? There are so many little touch points that can be utilized for kids. So I think just picking one or two or three other moments where you can design an interaction or experience around it will carry so much impact. And I think the third thing is, are you doing anything that your competitors are not doing? Is there one thing that you are doing for kids that feels different? If you were to look all of the other hotels that you have, hotels typically have 10, 20 hotels in mind as their competitors. If you go and survey the things that they're doing for kids and teens, is there anything that you are doing that is unique? Make sure that there is, and it doesn't have to be bringing the circus into town. We're not saying turn your hotel into Disneyland. This can apply even in space, poor city hotels, but find one little twist that you can give your kids or teens experience just to set yourself apart.

Saar (00:57:00):
Yeah, I think because it's a point of differentiation, some hotels are doing really lovely things, but guests have seen these things in other hotels. So any little thing that you can do different in addition to what you are already doing, it will really kind of go such a long way to distinguish that stay in their memory.

Alicia (00:57:26):
And I think the final point is to hotels, don't be scared to do something different, to take a risk. I think when it comes to kids from a health and safety, from what's appropriate, there are so many concerns and questions that hotels often fall into the trap of just doing the same thing because they've tried it, they've tested it, there's no edible parts, no one's going to swallow anything, no one's going to sue anyone. So I'm not saying go nuts, but just try to think creatively about what you are doing. And as I said before, find a little way to give it a twist or turn it upside down or spend a little bit of money. What we're suggesting is small fry in the grand scheme of attracting families and customers to your hotel, and you'll reap the benefits.

Josiah (00:58:21):
I mean, just building off that point of attracting families. And I was also thinking back to what you had mentioned earlier about you go to a lot of hotel websites and they talk about pets. I'm thinking about just, I really appreciate the practical recommendations on implementing some of this stuff. I guess I'm thinking about what's the best way to communicate because in some instances, it's best to not reveal everything. So there's a little bit of surprise and delight, but also it feels like it might be a missed opportunity if you don't talk about any of this stuff. When and where and how would you advise hotels that have made investments or created a guest experience that is catering more to kids and teens and families? Where and how should they communicate that?

Alicia (00:59:00):
I mean, I've been shocked looking at website after website and having to dig through the FAQs, the terms and conditions, the special events pages where kids will show up, if at all is a surprise every time. It's unbelievable where hotels have buried their family sections if they even have one. So as you said, I think we don't need to give the whole game away. We don't need to kind of reveal all of the tricks. But I think showing kids, talking about kids in ways that are more than just connecting rooms or a free breakfast, but using language that shows that we welcome kids. We're excited at the fun that kids are going to have with us because we get them making that prominent on a website so that parents don't have to dig around to see, can we go to this hotel? Are they going to accept us? Are we just going to be a nuisance? I think communicates so much about what the experience will be when you get there. So you don't even need to outline every little thing that's going to happen. You don't need to say, then we'll do this and then we'll do that. We just need to talk more openly and comfortably about the fact that this is a space that is really appropriate and welcoming to kids, and we're going to look after you more than just having chicken nuggets on the menu and a cot for your baby.

Saar (01:00:33):
And please don't use the kind of common jargon of the little ones or the little VIPs. It's more of the same. And we understand that this is a way to communicate that they are valued guests. But I think it, it's really taking it a bit step further and not just using a language where that basically just says, please come. We promise that we'll be nice to your kids.

Josiah (01:01:07):
I'm smiling. I appreciate the specificity of that. And also I am thinking for the hotel marketers that are listening to this, it still kind of offends my millennial sensibilities when it feels like design or experiences are created for an Instagram moment. And it's like, I get why, but it feels pandering and it feels, and I imagine younger folks feel the same. And so I'm curious to what extent, if at all this enters the marketing picture, is it more about communicating on a website or does this become some TikTok opportunity? How do you think about this in the media landscape, I guess?

Alicia (01:01:39):
Look, I think speaking from a hotel's perspective, there's enormous potential for great content and great socials and great pr. I think this in itself is an incredible PR angle, but that's quite a cynical way of looking at it. We are aware of that and use that all you like, but obviously we want the experience itself to feel authentic. And as we said, kids are real kind of bullshit detectors. So they'll know if it's something that's just for show. And we spoke,

Saar (01:02:12):
Yeah, sorry. A lot of this stuff is, it's clear that it's designed so that the family will take a picture of this or, oh, share this hashtag, you don't need to work so hard. The effort kind of comes through. All you need to do is take care of providing a great

Alicia (01:02:31):
Experience. I think a lot of hotels have done, once in a while, they'll do a big showpiece. We're doing this incredible kids decorated room, we're doing a room in partnership with this brand, and we've been having conversations behind the scenes and you say, do you actually do this? Has anyone booked this? And the answer is invariably no. We do have some of that stuff in the store room that we could bring it all out if someone happens to book that package. But basically it's a PR story. And I think our point is you don't have to do very much to wow kids. It isn't this massive waterpark in the lobby production, it's little hints of magic. It could be a pencil, but if you give that pencil at the right time, in the right way with the right challenge and a mystery that they need to solve, and please bring this to this desk at this time, it can be something that is so low cost, low operational input, but if you give the right prompt or the right context or the right story, it can transform the holiday. So this isn't about massive spend, it's not about massive effort. It's really just about a little bit of thought. So I think yes, there's the PR angle and there's all that kind of great Instagram quality for all of these beautiful projects. But when it comes down to it, this is a really modest way for a hotel to move the needle on the way that it's thought of, the way that it's spoken about, the way that it's reviewed, the way that it's shared. It doesn't need to be a big hoo-ha. Yeah.

Josiah (01:04:15):
I'm really grateful for you both sharing the insights that you have. I will say, and leading up to this conversation, over the past weeks, I've been asking a lot of my friends in hospitality, people running really interesting brands about what is the potential here and across the board, people are saying, there is so much potential here. We're not thinking about this. So this checks out in my own research, heading into this conversation. There's so much opportunity. I imagine a lot of people listening to this or watching this are going to want to learn more about you and your work. Where should we point our listeners? And if you wish to learn more about you both and the company you've created.

Alicia (01:04:52):
So our website is Wonderland London, and the report is@kidshospitality.org. We're going to be publishing that in the next couple of weeks, so you can look out for that. And feel free to get in touch with us, email us, have a chat with us, think things through with us. We are always happy to be a sounding board for anything that's currently happening in a hotel, something that you have this kind of inkling you might like to do, and let's just check out whether it makes sense, whether it will work operationally, whether it's going to be a catastrophe for your staff.

Saar (01:05:26):
At this point, we're as much learning about the industry as we are kind of bringing our know-how and expertise from these KISS industries.

Josiah (01:05:36):
I'll include links in the show notes. I really appreciate you both taking the time to talk. I know it's quite late there. If you have two more minutes to hang on here, I wonder if, I'm just thinking about how I could package maybe a little video clip or something as a promotional piece. I know we covered a lot in our conversation. Is there any part of the conversation you're especially excited about our listeners and viewers seeing? I'm curious as you reflect back, I know we covered a lot of stuff here.

Saar (01:06:05):
Gosh, it's been a whirlwind to me. It's all very hard to pick.

Alicia (01:06:10):
It's like asking us to pick who our favorite child is. Yeah, I mean, I think, I can't remember exactly where it was, but I think giving hotels the sense that it needn't be this kind of overwhelming, scary, expensive piece. So I think we covered that a little while ago where it's just kind of these little moments of magic, I think feel like something that should let the hotels off the hook from feeling this sense of pressure.

Saar (01:06:43):
What I will say is from an economical commercial perspective, I think that this is a must have. This is something that really hotels have to grab because of the potential payoff is really massive, especially in every industry with technology and social change needs to diversify and needs to look at new audiences or new ways to segment or ways to upsell their services. And it's just amazing that they have this audience there. They are coming, they are looking, they're part of the whole experience, and they're going to be more and more significant as far as travel decisions. So they just have to be looked at and something has to be done, otherwise you'll just be left behind as kind of this antiquated establishment that doesn't bring in that new generation.

Alicia (01:07:50):
And I know that you asked us to look at the things that we've already said, but just to add to it, now is the time to do it because it's cheap and it's easy and no one else is doing it. So obviously it feels scary to be the first one to fray out of your comfort zone. But as we said, it doesn't need to be something too complicated or complex. A little bit of an investment of time, money thought now will go such a long way and you'll be the first out the gate. It's still early days. I think the industry is going to move massively in that direction. Kids are so fundamentally important. They're digital natives, they're leading the way. And so I think for hotels to kind of align themselves with these kids, these young adults feel so critically important. And right now it's so cheap and it's so easy to do it because no one is. 

Saar (01:08:44):
And with all honesty, we are designing gold standards that we believe will be part of the industry for many years to come. So joining up now can really be an asset for many years to come in being part of creating these new traditions.