How to Accelerate Your Career in Hospitality Through Learning and Personal Growth - Tal Shnall, The Joule

Josiah: How can you grow and develop your skills while managing all the day-to-day demands of working in hospitality? Well, in this episode, Tal Shnall, Learning and Development Manager at The Joule, an amazing luxury hotel in Dallas, reveals why personal and professional growth is essential for you and your team, and how to make it a priority. You'll hear Tal's own story of rising through the ranks from operations to leadership, his approach to continuous development, and how to foster resilience and leadership among your teams. Get ready to learn how you can think about growth as a leader and implement strategies that will elevate your career, your team, and your guest experience.

Josiah: I would love for our listeners to get to know you a little bit. And I wonder if you could share with them a little bit about your role today, because you have an unusual role at a hotel. You work at an extraordinary hotel, but it's unusual for a hotel property. So tell our listeners a little bit about your role today.

Tal: Yeah, definitely. So my role here at The Joule, I'm at The Joule in Dallas, Texas, downtown Dallas. We're one of the top properties in the state of Texas, a nationwide luxury property. We are working on our five stars. But I'm the learning and development manager, which has actually been a dream of mine for many, many years. I've been in the industry for quite some time. And I didn't start out as a learning and development manager. I came from operations. But probably in the last 10 years, it's been a dream come true when I was interviewed here for the job. My family and my friends were saying, Tal, you just landed something you've been dreaming about, thinking about, something you always wanted to do. You're investing a lot of your time in adding value to yourself, your own personal growth, and hospitality, and customer service, leadership. You know, wouldn't be amazing when you can do this every single day. And so, you know, when people say, sometimes I say, you know, how are you today? And they say, well, I live my dream. And I really wanted to say that, that I actually live my dream in actuality. And so I think this is amazing. And I'm really grateful for everyone here that works in the hotel who gave me this opportunity. Because when people ask, what's one of your most important values? And it's growth, growth and development. And I'm not saying, you know, just, you know, developing others, but it's also developing something that I that is my life mission is to develop myself to become the best version of myself. And then I can give to some somebody else from what I'm learning every single day.

Josiah: I love it. We're going to spend the majority of our conversation talking about just that, about growth and development. So I'm really excited for our listeners to hear kind of how you're thinking about this, what you've learned about this. But I would love them to get to know you just a little bit more. And so I wonder if we could rewind the clock and talk about how you got started in hospitality. What attracted you to this business in the beginning?

Tal: Yeah, well it was by accident, I have to say that. It's one of those summer jobs that you take in college and you kind of try things out. I will tell you I definitely didn't have the social skills, the presentation skills, the public speaking skills, the training skills. I knew I was a good person, so let's start with that. A good foundation to build on. But I really started out at one of the Hilton properties here that was back in the 90s and really worked around people who were like almost like a second family. And I really liked the culture, the people, and back then there wasn't things like training or development or coaching, or we definitely did not have a learning and development manager. But, you know, the people that they were inspirational to me were the managers at that time, and they were my classroom. I learned everything from them. So, started with one of the Hilton properties, full service in Dallas area, kind of close to the gallery in North Dallas. And then can just continue a lot of it in operational roles and some of it was training and development, but not to the full extent that I'm doing today. And just continue to be in front of guest relations, guest experiences, working with people from food and beverage to front office to guest relations. All these great things led me to really go up to become a manager one day because I kind of started out as a bottom. My first position was a reservationist in the hotel business, but I developed myself. I was around great people that were mentors of mine. And I joined other companies. I joined Marriott, for example, Starwood, and started becoming more of a kind of a well-versed with all the brand training, which is a different kind of training. But it's definitely led me to where I am today. And I have to be really grateful to that because I can relate to the things that I'm teaching every single day to the staff here. So The heavy bulk of it was really front office and guest relations and then being an operational manager and continuing my journey until one day it was a Marriott property, Marriott Renaissance, where I was given the opportunity to do some of their brand training. And that's how I really started doing mentoring and training and development.

Josiah: We've seen it all, and I'm going to link your LinkedIn profile to the show notes. If you have to check this out for yourself, you've seen it all from an operations perspective: different brands, different types of properties, and all that led you to your work today. I'm curious; I have kind of this hunch in my own career experience where I feel like career development isn't really linear. It feels like there's sometimes these big breaks or something changes. Was that your experience? Do you kind of feel like there was a role that you feel like, I don't know, it just kind of, it was a whole new game for you.

Tal: Definitely. And I think that that happens to a lot of us in this industry. One of the things I've learned early on that you can relate, your audience can relate to is the fact that it's very unconventional. There is no kind of a straight line on how people grow and how people get to their destination. And I think it's on purpose. I think I share with people that I think hospitality teaches us the life skills, right? There's emotional intelligence skills, relationship skills, how to lead people, how to build a team, how to handle difficult guests, how difficult employees, how to handle all these things. And I think hospitality really taught me a lot of that, but I didn't really come with those skill sets when I first started. It took many years, and some of it were growing pains. Some of it is a lot of learning, a lot of growing, and kind of coming back to it. And I think many of us in this industry, to your point that you're sharing about our trajectory, is that there is a journey and we're kind of saying to yourself, you know, we're on purpose. I mean, it's supposed to happen. Yeah, we didn't have such a great day here, but then we were resilient and we're learning and we're growing. Then we become the best version. I will have to, you know, be full transparent. If it wasn't for those stepping stone and the way and then those, you know, learning moments and growing moments, I wouldn't be where I was today. And if I wasn't resilient enough, if I didn't have good people around me, there were many, many moments, if I have to think of several of them, there are moments where I almost gave up. I almost said, you know, I'm not sure if this is industry for me. I'm not really good with taking care of customers. I'm not really good in managing the team. I had several positions where I didn't really develop I came in fresh, green to those and I had to learn a lot. So several, I think from one moment I would have to say coming from an hourly position to a leadership position was definitely a lot of growing pains because I thought I was ready. And I remember working at that Hilton, then going into a management position in another property was a lot of learning and growing. And there was a moment of time where I felt like, okay, I'm not sure about this. Maybe I wasn't meant to be a leader or a manager in the industry, but somehow it all works out in a way. So I would say my difficult you know, probably challenging moment that really changed my trajectory was, okay, you know, how do we learn to be a great leader? Because I felt like I was missing something in between.

Josiah: It's super helpful. And I think, I mean, as you were describing that, you're describing this moment where you think you're ready for it or you think you can do more. I imagine a lot of our listeners will relate to that, regardless actually of kind of where they are in their career journey. I've felt moments in my career where I felt frustrated because I feel like I've been held back. I feel like I can step up to the next role. And, you know, maybe I was ready, maybe I wasn't. What do you advise people that are feeling that feeling?

Tal: I'm glad you asked that because I think all of us, I mean, I think any industry, if you look at successful people, I think that, you know, failure or learning is part of success, right? So when you take people in our industry and I look at people, mentors of mine, and how they Became a success and how even other industries how people become successful when you look at sports you look at celebrities you look at other fields You know, it's it's it's definitely not obviously. I know it sounds cliche, but it's not It's not meant to be easy. It's not meant to anything worthwhile is gonna be challenging it's gonna get you out of your comfort zone and And I'm really big on that because everything that I've learned up to date, and I still have a lot of growing to do, it is because I stepped into situations that I was not comfortable with. And because I wasn't comfortable with, I actually learned the most, and it gave me a better understanding of some of the things you share. You know, it could be frustration, it could be a challenge, but what I want to tell your audience and your listeners is that, you know, kind of hang in there because there's a purpose, there's a gift. I do believe there's a gift in the challenge. and then it makes you stronger, it makes you better. If you look at sports teams and how they practice, they probably work harder when they're practicing before they go out on the field and playing. It's because there's still those moments where you really need to build resiliency and it's like squeezing an orange, you're getting the juice out of it, which means that you're gonna get the best out of that moment that you're learning. But I do agree, I have to say that In our industry, I think it's something for us to share with people, especially young people, to say, you know, just because something wasn't working out or it wasn't a good day, you know, continue your path, continue to learn and grow.

Josiah: Well, you alluded to some of the mentors that you've had over your career. I'm curious, does one come to mind at one of those junctures where maybe you were doubting yourself? And if so, how did they interact with you? What did you learn from them?

Tal: Sure. I would say one of the first managers I had, he was our night manager, Manuel Navarro. He's from Spain, but had a lot of international hotel experience, a lot of operational experience, a lot of customer service experience. And he was almost like a second father to me. Very much that, you know, kind of a tough love, but he was also a friend. You know, we had a gap of years between us, and I was just starting my career, and I thought he was just that very challenging manager. But, you know, he taught me a lot of hospitality skills that I really didn't have and how to talk to the guests. And he was our manager on duty, so I had to listen to how he's talking to guests who are, you know, are not having a great stay. And so he was further down the line. It became surreal when I became a night manager several years ago and had the same similar position. So I think it's interesting how the world is and how life is to where there is a purpose for something. But Manuel was a father figure, was a mentor before mentoring was even brought out. But he's one of many, I have to say, that had a lot of, if I had to count them, there's a lot of them out there. One of the things I want to say to your listeners is that If you really pay close attention, you can actually learn from every single person. It's just a matter of really paying attention, and you may not like everything about them, but there's something that you can learn from that individual.

Josiah: It's a really good approach to take. Whether it's a positive example or a negative one, you can learn, but you have to pay attention, as you mentioned. You have to be aware and listen. I love that. I want to get into talking more about growth and development. And maybe as a way to segue into that, you know, we talked a little bit about your career. You've held, you kind of seen it all. You've held all these roles with increasing levels of responsibility. When did this focus on growth and development, you know, start for you? Was it a moment that you recall?

Tal: Yeah, definitely. As I mentioned, I was really challenged with, you know, how to really become a good leader. And I turned to John Maxwell, and John Maxwell has several leadership books. He's a good mentor of mine as well, a part of the John Maxwell leadership team. There's a lot of coaches who have been part of his team over the years, and they keep growing. great organizations. He has several great organizations. What I wanted to say is that there was a, that moment was when, you know, I wasn't really doing well in terms of my own leadership, and I needed to, you know, look for resources. Also in my personal life, you know, I wasn't really doing well either. And so I thought about something. I was reading somewhere, I think it was, I was reading a biography somewhere, about a leader who was very well-respected leader. And one of the things that he typically does or for not just, you know, probably as a hobby, but it was that he was reading and he was learning. And it kind of turned a light in me that, Tal, why can't you do the same? You know, why can't you learn and develop yourself by reading and you know this was before podcast but but what I wanted to say is at that moment it clicked for me to say if you want to improve your life improve your your work life your career everything that kind of all revolves around that I probably spent a lot of days and just immersing in books and reading and learning and listening and trying to improve myself. I did a lot of that outside of work. There wasn't so much training and development as it is now. But I really took, which I still do by the way, personal investment is really your key to success, happiness, gratitude, everything you want in your life is going to come through personal development. And I'm very passionate about it because I am the one that you see today. If you took me 20 years ago, you saw somebody that was very green, without the skills, without even life skills. And so I'm a testament to personal growth and development. And I'm not stopping anytime soon, because I know that One of the things I've learned from John Maxwell is you can't give what you don't have. And that it's not only in hospitality, that's in our relationships with the people that we have. So you've got to continuously put stuff in you that creates value for other people. How do you do that? Well, you put value in yourself. And whether you listen to a podcast, such as our Hospitality Daily podcast, which is amazing. We can certainly talk about your stuff too. But this is an opportunity for growth for people. So podcasts, seminars, anything that you can, and of course I can talk to you for days about it. But yeah, very, very, very important for anybody who wants to be successful.

Josiah: Well, I appreciate you getting into some of the different ways that you can learn. It starts with the mindset, you know, why are you going to do this? But the ways that you can learn, um, it's interesting to me because I think, you know, I felt this at different times. I hear people saying this all sounds good or I should do it, but I don't have time or too tired, you know, working in the hospitality business just takes a lot from me. And when do I do this? Uh, but I am hearing people that are getting creative. You know, a lot of people listen to hospitality daily on their commute into work. to kind of get the right state of mind. Some people listen to it while they're running. Lou, I know you're listening, appreciate you. And I think there's ways to get it in, but I don't know if yourself or kind of people that you're coaching, has that objection sort of come up where it's like, I just don't have time for this?

Tal: No, I love that. I love that. And I love that realist point of view, which is very, very true. And I think that I think there's two sides to that. I think that part of you is you're also I think we need to understand where people are. I mean, I know when I in some of my roles in hospitality, if somebody talked to me about reading a book or, you know, trying to learn something, you know, it would be kind of resistance. I think there's an illusion out there that just by gaining experience and going through the motions every single day, you don't get there like that. What I try to come from is to those who have resistance is that if you really want to advance, not just your career, but your life in general, personal investment in your own growth, whether, as you mentioned, a lot of people are driving and they're tuning into podcasts, which is great. So if it's an audiobook and audiobook works better, then go for it. It really doesn't matter how you're getting the information or the knowledge and the skills as long as it's coming there. All I know, which is something that I'm deeply knowledgeable about, is that the people who are making a difference, people who are successful in their roles, or people who are advancing and they're growing in their career, it doesn't matter what industry, and then in general in life, those are people who are investing in themselves. I think that The time constraint is, I have a saying, you know, if you want it, you find a way. If you don't want it, you find an excuse. So it's things like your podcast, which I'm very excited about, to see you there with what you're creating and what you're bringing to the table is something that people didn't have 20 years ago. And so somebody can say, well, you know, I know a lot of people who are not book readers, you know, but But here's an alternative. Here's an alternative to your growth. So if that's an excuse, then how about a podcast? So you can really see if they're really interested in that or they're just saying it to just, you know, OK, you know, you know. So I think it's really important to understand, you know, people's motivations and what they want to do, how they want to grow. I think it does come from the inside.

Josiah: Yeah, yeah. Well, I appreciate that. And for me, this is so fun to have the chance to talk with you and learn from you. And I know there's so many others that will be kind of learning along with us here. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about your experience in becoming a John Maxwell coach, because I've read a number of his books as well. And it sounds like kind of for you, part of your story was reading the books, and then you decide to go through the coaching program. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of what was involved in that? What did that feel like to kind of go from reading the book to doing the more immersive learning journey?

Tal: I love that because that's really how I started is just reading the book, you know, reading the books, highlighting and really trying to reflect on them and trying to meditate on some of the learning and teaching. What I love about John Maxwell and some of the things that you've mentioned is that he was about relationships and leadership is how well we're connecting to people, how well we're adding value to people, how well do we, how do we value other people. And so I say this because if you look at leadership in general or management, it's really something unique, and I think that really spoke to me. It may not speak to others, but I think that it really elevated my growth and potential and also the message of John Maxwell. The teachings are about attitude, relationships, leadership, equipping people, and it's also about personal growth. So it kind of combines It's almost selfish in a way. I'm adding value to myself, but then in a way I'm adding value to others in the same time. So it's a win-win approach that I've learned a lot from. I continuously watch YouTube and read his books, but it's kind of a, you know, it may be a strong word, but it's sacred in the way that it really speaks to you so that his message speaks to me and I've applied some of those things in my own personal life. That's what makes it even more meaningful when you can From a learning and development perspective, it's not enough to learn. It's something that you constantly have to apply because it's almost selfish to just learn it yourself. You have to really try it and test it and get very uncomfortable sometimes. And to say, you know what, this work didn't work. I think this can work here. And you're really testing and trying. But the mentoring from the whole company of John Maxwell and the leaders there have been immersive and very, very important for my own development and the people that I'm around.

Josiah: Interesting. So you spent a number of years doing that, and then you decided to return to work in-house in hospitality, and you sort of answered my question at the beginning, and I was just so curious, you know, kind of why return to hospitality? You're working across kind of a bunch of different areas, and then you come back to this business. I'm interested in if there's a especially interesting opportunity to apply some of these concepts in the hospitality world, just because it is so relational, it is so people-driven. And I've observed people like my friend, David Arraya, who was a general manager, and now he's focused on leadership. And then now getting to know your work, I'm starting to see a theme here where it feels like leadership in general is important, but especially in hospitality. Did that factor into you taking the role that you have today?

Tal: Definitely. And I think even years before, because once I understood that it's about people, and there's nothing more rewarding if you're a true hotelier and somebody who's been in the industry for a long time, if you're into… I think it doesn't matter if it's operational roles or other roles in the business. The biggest joy, I mean, I want to give you an example, is our housekeeping week, right, that exists for many, many hotels. And I walk in and seeing some of the things we're doing and it just You know, there's nothing more, you can't really, almost cannot describe it because when I learned that it's about people and it's about valuing them and taking this journey together with people to where their success is really what you're committed to, is to help them, to mentor them, to create value for them when they're there. Our industry, over the last few years have been, you know, there's all these challenges, obviously, and I think a lot of people, a lot of leaders, managers, had a very difficult time, some of them still have a difficult time to connect, to build relationships, to add value, to You know, one of the things that I really love about the teachings of John Maxwell is that we love people unconditionally, and I'm not talking about romance or intimately, but do you like the people that you're working with? Are you engaging with them? Do you want to Be around them so they can learn from you and that's what leadership is about in any business? I think it's just those Foundational that it's it's really about the people and I'm thinking about yes. I do want to go into my career and obviously Go up and expand my skill set, too but something that someone said to to me recently that they came from a corporate environment to where they came back to a the property and he said, you know, it's that that camaraderie that that he pull and the atmosphere of that hotel running and guest relations and then talking to the staff. He said I felt like I missed that, and I wanted to come back to that, and so I don't want to be that person because it's one of those things where I do want to expand my career, but I also still want to be around people. And I want to add to that something here that's really important. Just because I train people and mentor them and develop them, the biggest joy that I have is to learn from them. So if you, you know, I teach a lot about hospitality and guest service and leadership, but the biggest joy for me is to see it, to learn it from other people. And that's, you can't put a price to it because there's so much theory out there and so much articles out there and everything else and books. But then when you can learn this from other people, it doesn't matter if it's an hourly associate to an assistant manager. To me, that's value to me because I can share what I'm learning from other people.

Josiah: Is there an interaction or it doesn't have to be something you learned, but kind of an interaction you recall recently to help our listeners sort of get a sense of kind of what that feels like for you?

Tal: Yeah, I think just we have several people who work in our front office and I always like to walk around and see how they're interacting with the guest. Several, you know, even just coming up to our restaurants here and seeing how they're engaging and how they're connecting with the guests. It truly is inspiring. We have a concept here that we talk about. It's called Far Over. Far Over is an above-and-beyond experience, a wow experience we do for our guests. And I constantly get emails with pictures and how do we wow this guest? How do we surprise and delight them? And I, you know, every time I open these emails, I saying, you know what, it not only clicked, I am happy to see that I see their creativity, I see what they're capable of. But it's also watching, there's several people that I watch, and they're really good about building those relationships, which I think, The word relationships really need to come back to our industry. We call it connections, but it's really about the people who inspire me or the people who can really take a guest. From that, they really build their relationship through several interactions. And that's something that I've seen with my Marriott experience. And I try to bring that to training and development because relationships is not something that we're taught anywhere, even in our personal life. So can you imagine someone is exemplifying through their example, through their teachings, that here's how you build a relationship with your clients and your guests.

Josiah: I love it. You have a, I feel like one of the most interesting jobs I've come across and you're building on your career to date to take everything that you've learned and kind of funnel it into the role today. I think, you know, in our conversation we talked about there's a lot of different ways you can learn. And I'm interested if you can give our listeners a little bit of a kind of view behind the scenes in terms of how you think about structuring learning and growth and training, or just kind of the overall program that you oversee? What are some of its components, and how have you thought about putting them together?

Tal: Sure. No, it's very, very structured. We definitely start with our orientation. Then we go into several classes about how to, you know, how to create that luxury experience as something that we want every associate to go through. So we spend quite a bit of time on their first day, making sure that they go through really great orientation that involves, you know, talking about our vision and values and our culture and how service-related and service-minded it is. And it's about creating those connections with our guests. So I would say the first couple of weeks is really teaching them and showing them what our culture feels like, looks like from, you know, a sensory experience so they can really feel it in themselves. So we spend quite a bit of time on the introduction and teaching them the skills that we're looking for. I do several.

Josiah: If I could just ask a follow-up, that's interesting, the kind of like sensory thing. I feel like this is an interesting piece that I'm curious about because not everybody grew up in a luxury environment. I did it. I'm curious how you kind of help someone who doesn't have that background start to immerse and sort of get it. What does that look like?

Tal: Sure. So from a luxury perspective, we're definitely looking at being anticipatory, personalizing the guest experience. And I'm emphasizing these things. Obviously, it's quite obvious that if you're going to go into the luxury hospitality, you definitely want to make sure that everything else is there. Obviously, the cleanliness and the way the property looks and the way that everything, the guest has to feel like they're being pampered. So one thing is obviously the sensory experience is about, you may walk into a hotel and it looks luxury, you may have seen some pictures online, you just, you know, your first few minutes, you can sense that luxury because it has that feeling, right? If you're going to walk into maybe a Ritz-Carlton or Four Seasons, you're going to feel it, right? But the most important part about that sensory experience is how people feel, and so it's an emotional experience. One of my favorite quotes is that people may forget what you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And I share this because this is really, if somebody said, Tal, give me that one punchline of what services, what leadership is, what everything else you teach is really about how do we make our guests feel, our customers, how do we make our employees feel, how do we make our owners feel, our management company, how do we make them feel because our business is an emotional business. That's one of the things that I've learned in my upcoming business that your guests are going to look for that emotional connection. They're not there to you know, work on an algebra equation, you're really there to connect with their heart. I want to emphasize this because this is really not talked as much about, which I think is really about that personal connection, anticipatory service, It's about finding something about this guest and you really, you know, if somebody had a, you know, their son is coming to Dallas, they've never been to Dallas, maybe their son is graduating from SMU over the weekend, how can you personalize that to where when they leave the hotel, they can't wait to share. They take pictures, they get a gift. I want to give you an example. My parents came back from France for a little vacation, niece in France, and they showed me, of course, they have to show it to me, that they got a gift. It was like a notebook with something from the location, a handwritten note from the staff. And my mother said, you know, they took it a step further. They gave us hugs. They came to talk to us. They were really genuine. and there were five-star properties. It's not a well, I mean, I don't have the name of the property, but that's what luxury is. It's no longer, that's a different topic, but luxury is not only for, it's not exclusive anymore. It's inclusive in a way that people want to experience luxury. They want to experience from an emotional, also from a product perspective. But you ask a good question because that's one of the elements that right now in our industry that so many people work hard on is that, how do I personalize this? And I think not just in luxury, but how do I really personalize that connection with, I guess, what do I need to do? Do I put something in the room? Well, not necessarily. You really want to be thoughtful about this. You really want to connect with that guest. Imagine if every guest got a birthday cake, it wouldn't be personalized to them. So that's really to your question there.

Josiah: So I am curious where you see hospitality going in the next 10 years or so. And to just put a little more context around this, I think I'm trying to understand this tension between the timelessness of hospitality that's rooted in connection and meaning and memories, things that you've described. It feels very timeless. And, you know, all the crazy stuff that is always changing in the world. I come from a background in tech, so I see tech advancing, but I'm really intrigued by some of what you've just described, because I think it is those memories. And, you know, at the end of the day, we're humans, and it feels timeless. How do you think about that, kind of where hospitality goes?

Tal: Yeah, I love your question because in a way that's part of the development that I try to share is to show genuine interest in our guests. You know, and some guests are more maybe more business and they have to go to a conference call and those type of things. But I think that, you know, it comes from the heart. You really want to connect with people because hospitality can change the world. What I'm saying there is, I know in my experience, probably your experience, is that when a guest comes into our hotel, we can create memories for them. If my parents came back, and my parents have high expectations, so if they came back with something to share with me that really impressed them, To me, you really are changing not just hospitality, you're changing the world by being kind, by being compassionate, by creating a memory for that guest. It's not so much about the specific gift. But imagine if someone did not have a great day. Maybe they just didn't have a wonderful morning and then you came into their day in the hotel or restaurant or spa and then you did something for them It's what happens afterwards to that guest or human being that they're going to do something for someone in their family, for someone in their friend. So to me, hospitality is a lot more powerful than people imagine. And we have to use our imagination where we can, where you and I can take it with your podcast is that If I ask every human being on this earth, what do we need more of? They'll say we need more hospitality. We need more kindness, compassion with people. Well, all these things we learned in hospitality.

Josiah: But it's so great and I like the, there's still so much opportunity because it sounds like themes that we've been talking about for a while, but it still really stands out when it's done well. And so I love that story of your parents taking the photo. It's funny, I feel like when someone gets out their phone and takes a photo, it's usually you've done something, right? Hopefully, you know, it's almost like the signifier of like, this is worth, you know, saving this memory, right? I want to share it.

Tal: It does, and I think that more and more, and I like what you said, because I think more and more guests and customers who are paying for luxury, they're paying for an experience. What I'd like to share is something I've learned many, many, many years ago is we don't sell rooms, we sell experiences. So whatever your area is in hospitality is to flip it and saying, you know, we're in the experience and memories business. And so I think it's almost like Starbucks. They're not in the coffee business per se, but they're in the creating experience, creating memories with their culture or drinks and those type of things or their place where people can hang out. But I think that every hotel you need to take that approach is that If I can teach people in hospitality to say, you know, can we think about it from the lens of experiences? It's not a spa treatment or it's not a, you know, I'm not having a meal, I'm having an experience. The moment people think about it that way and they can share that with their team and their associates, it embeds a mindset that that person came in and you know they they left and they're saying you know this was not just dinner this was an experience this is not just a hotel room you know we came in and that's what my parents really in reflection that's what my parents shared with me we came and we enjoyed um it was a wonderful time But the hotel was just not the hotel. There was an experience. And to take it a step further, it's that human connection. Because they could have said, here's the notebook, here's the pictures, and here's some things they created for us. There was a handwritten letter. But the moment that they said, they came behind the front desk, and they talked to us, and they're making sure everything's going well. They gave us hugs. That is really hospitality. And I think our industry needs more of that, what I call, we need to humanize more and more hospitality. And yes, technology is going to AI and those type of things. But I'm going to tell you that although people embrace technology, they will embrace, they want that human touch. I remember working in some of the hotels that got the mobile check-in, right? But we still had people come to the front desk. And why? Because they want that personal connection and personal touch. I think we all feel better that someone is there to pamper us, take care of us, and then somebody's listening to us. And I think that's important.

Josiah: I love it. I'm curious what else is kind of on your mind these days. Is there any kind of thing that you've been working on that you can kind of share with us or, you know, what are you thinking about these days?

Tal: No, you know, it's funny because I think you and I talked before the interview and you and I, I think, are in spirits about it because We both see what we're doing. And I think where I'm at is I really want to bring the excitement, the passion to hospitality. And I think it can be even more elevated than when I first started. You know, hospitality was, well, still is obviously people go to school. They learn it, they come, they maybe do an internship. But I really want to bring that kind of pizzazz back to make hospitality sexy. To think, you know, we work in this business, and yes, it's not easy to work in it. Some of the hours are long hours, and there's a lot of stuff in it to where people don't think of it as a sexy industry. But I think there's a point where there's a lot of things that people are now learning, that I'm learning, that I want to bring into the industry. So they can say, you know what, the industry was here, but we're ready to unleash hospitality from every single person. We want to you know, the values of kindness, empathy, and compassion are all, you know, part of our daily lives. And I think that if we make that kind of the brand of hospitality to where people say, you know what, we want to join this industry, we see a career. So what I'm saying here is, There was, you know, you go to school and that was, I think now it's about the things that you were working on, that I'm working on, that it's like, you know what, this is super interesting, you know, I want to be part of that. You know, how can I, how can I add value to that? How can I be part of that and contribute? So some of your interviews that I listen to and some of the things you do online, to me, it's a contribution to my personal growth. And then I know that where are we with this hospitality industry that is shining a light to where for years, because of COVID and other things, you can really bring hospitality in a way that it is today, I think, because you are literally cutting back on staff. You're cutting back on a lot of your services. The guest is not having the same experience. Your employees are not having the same experience. So it was really hard to say, Alright, well hospitality is back. It's it's I think now we're we're making that we're making it come back

Josiah: I love it. Well, and another thing I'm kind of curious about is, you know, kind of all this focus on growth and personal development, the experiences you have in a hotel or a hospitality business, I feel like you've learned a lot about people. Has your experience been that you've been able to take some of those learnings or some of that growth and apply it to your personal life, you know, whether it's how you interact with family or neighbors, or have you kind of noticed it spills outside of just the work context?

Tal: Very much so, very much so. And I heard something the other day that from a, well, I'll share my own experience. My own personal experience has taught me that, and I'm actually thinking about writing a book about hospitality in my experience. And I think, you know, one chapter could be the 10 lessons I've learned about hospitality that is really the 10 lessons I learned about in life. because the more I reflect about my career, my trajectory, and what I've learned from some of your questions that we're discussing here today is it's really about building relationships with people. And you can use hospitality skills with your spouse, with your children. There's a lot of emotional intelligence skill sets that are there that are front and center of many, many, you know, if someone is looking for a leader or somebody who's in the hospitality industry, I will tell you, and I'm interviewing people all the time, is that it's emotional intelligence skills, that hospitality is so, so built on that, but you can use those skills I've learned, I was not a very social person before I joined the industry, but hospitality taught me how to talk to people and how to read, you know, there's a saying in our industry, know how to read your guest. It's almost like a sixth sense that we can read their body language and we can tell they're happy, excited, or they're upset. So I think is very much, there's a lot of value I like your question. There's a lot of value into what we can learn from hospitality. You may not see it right away because you think, well, it's a customer service job. At the end of the day, it's really not. That's one of the things that we share here in our culture. It's not a job. It's a lifestyle. It's the way you think. It's your mindset. And I think that if people think that way, I certainly didn't start that way, too. I thought, you know, many years, I thought it was a job. And, you know, you go through the motions. But after learning from all these years, I would say when it becomes something that is that you want to grow into and apply these things. If you learn about hospitality, you can be just as hospitable to a coworker, to another manager, to another department. And so it becomes your brand. You become hospitality as your own personal brand because, you know, there's a saying that it's who you are, it's like your personal business card in a way that how you treat others and then those type of things. So it's definitely all about relationships and all about people.

Josiah: Well, I love it. There are so many reasons to be focused on learning and growing and developing these skills. I wonder, before we go, if we could leave our listeners with some resources. Could be from yourself, could be from others that you've appreciated. I'll link in the show notes to your LinkedIn profile. I encourage everybody who's listening to this, open up your app, click that link. Make sure to follow because I feel like I learned so much from you just kind of seeing the posts that you share. But any other resources you'd point our listeners to?

Tal: I would say, you know, sometimes people ask me, what's the most impactful book you've ever read? You know, you read a lot of books. What is one book you would recommend to anyone you see? And I have to say it's Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. That is a life book. That is a leadership book. That is a hospitality book. There's a lot of great stuff in that book. I read it almost every year, every summer, and it becomes more relevant, more relevant. There's great things in it from time management to how we build relationships, of course, any John Maxwell book, of course. But I would say if there's that one book that you really, that will change your life, it certainly changed my life, and continues to change my life is Stephen Covey, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. It came out a long time ago, but it's one of those things that you mentioned earlier. It's that timeless principles that can help people grow and learn and become the best version of themselves.

Josiah: Amazing. I've read it several times. You've inspired me to reread it, but I've learned so much from you from our conversation. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and share your insights with all of us today.

Tal: Definitely. I know I've learned from you as well. So that was really one of my goals is to learn a lot from you as well.