The Hospitality Mentality: Your Key To Delighted Guests And Internal Fulfillment - Josh Liebman

Josh I've been in the hospitality, tourism, and attractions space for a little over 18 years. So I'm probably a little different from most of the other guests that you've had on the show because my background is actually in theme parks. So early on, I worked for Disney and worked for Universal. had the opportunity to open multiple parks, while at the same time pursuing an education in the industry as well. So at the University of Central Florida in Orlando, they were, at the time, the only university in the country that offered a program specifically for theme park management as part of the hospitality college. So I went to school for theme parks, basically. I studied theme park management in college and then went back to UCF to get my master's degree in hospitality and tourism. So after working in the parks for several years, once I finished graduate school, I had the opportunity to move over into the consulting space. Initially, it was actually not in theme parks at all, which made up my entire work experience at that point, I dove headfirst into the world of luxury hotels and resorts. So now I was very familiar with how does Disney do things? How does Universal do things? How does Legoland do things? Now it's, hey, how does Ritz Carlton do things? How does Four Seasons and Waldorf Astoria and Peninsula and Montage and Mandarin Oriental and just so many of the top-tier lodging brands. And it was really interesting, actually, to kind of see, I would say the juxtaposition, but also a lot of the similarities in the focus as well. For the last decade or so, I've been consulting and the vast majority of my business is in the attraction space. But I also work with other realms of hospitality, like short-term rental. So Airbnb, you get a home management, things like that. But what's cool is the work that I do from a guest experience standpoint. Yeah, I would say a lot of it was born from theme parks and probably everything you could envision when you think of a theme park guest experience. But it's applicable in zoos, museums, and aquariums, had the opportunity to work with family entertainment centers and trampoline parks and bowling centers and kind of everything that falls into this like tourism attractions and then out-of-home entertainment aspect. But weave in this culture of hospitality that let's say if you go bowling somewhere and you feel like the staff is acting like they're at a Ritz Carlton, that elevates your experience substantially. So that essentially is the work that I do in the attraction space.

Josiah I love that. I was talking to a banker the other day who had brought in a luxury hotel brand to learn from them. And I think it's interesting to see guest experience design and elements of hospitality. They're so broadly applicable. We're going to focus our conversation today on the hospitality ecosystem. But I want to follow up on something that you mentioned. And kind of that is why these luxury hotels and resorts wanted to work with you and learn from you with your background in attractions. The reason I'm asking is a lot of hoteliers, a lot of lodging providers that listen to this show. Why should they pay attention to best practices that maybe some of them originated in theme parks and attractions?

Josh That's a good question. When I was hired by that firm that was working with those organizations, I guess it stood out that I had the hospitality focus within just another sector of what's essentially the same industry. And in many instances, you can learn so much from people or from businesses that are not identical to your own. There are a lot of times you run the risk of kind of having an echo chamber if you're just talking to other businesses and operators that have the exact same process. And we've been doing the exact same thing for so many years. It's not that they're bad things or they're good things, but to be able to see things that are a little bit more fresh, that might be a little bit different than perhaps what you're used to. Even just the example that you gave of the banker bringing in someone to give a Ritz-Carlton level training to say, I would love a Ritz-Carlton level experience when I go into the bank. So being able to see how other industries or even just areas of the industry are operating gives you a lot to learn from, be able to say, can we implement some of this mindset, some of these practices?

Josiah I love it. I want to ask you, why did you write a book? Because it is so much work to go through that book process. You've been consulting for a decade, as you mentioned, you've worked in the industry for longer, you're consulting, you're advising, you're speaking, you're all over the place. Why create this book, which I am very lucky to get an advanced copy of, it's going to be on in wherever great books are sold very soon. But why go through this process?

Josh Yeah, that's a good question. You're right. It's definitely been a lot of work. I knew that I had the idea for, you know, for a long time. And particularly as I got my consulting business going and off the ground, there were a lot of very early drafts that you will not be reading in the pages of the books that were rightfully scrapped. But it was more so of what is this concept. What is this framework? So that's evolved considerably over the last decade or so of what is it that I am consulting on. So I developed a training workshop several years ago. I had a client, a family-owned and operated chain of miniature golf courses, who said to me, Josh, we want to be like the Chick-fil-A of mini golf. So kind of to the point of learning from other industries or things like that. They said, can you build us a customer service training program? I was like, Yeah, probably, you know, I'm sure I could. So started really connecting the dots of how do I see and I'm going to put in air quotes here, you know, customer service, because I don't even call it customer service. And, you know, a lot of people in hospitality don't even call it customer service, right? You know, it's about the guest service and the guest experience and everything there. So kind of creating those mindsets that I had never seen before in a training session. I had gone through the ranks of a number of different organizations while at the same time studying it from the academic level. And even dating back to when I was in graduate school, I was working full headfirst in the theme park industry. And so I'm reading what these academic researchers said in the 90s and 2000s, seeing their data and saying, Oh, let's go do this at work. And then being able to see, oh, wow, that works this idea that these researchers found on service recovery and complaint resolution so long as so many years ago, we're seeing it happen in real-time, I can kind of leave a trail of breadcrumbs here to say, this is a very repeatable process. And not only is it good for guest service, but how it all ties back to the business. So coming back, you know, to your question, a few years ago, I booked a series of training workshops that were sort of lined up for over the following several months. And I really thought about, you know, I had the workshop in place, I'd been delivering it for a couple of years. At that point, I thought to just start writing down the narrative draft of what is this training workshop, and writing it, knowing in the back of my head that maybe one day this can become a book. So the draft that ultimately became the book started out as me just writing out my training workshop, kind of as far as being able to say, here's the flow of it, and here's the framework that I'm delivering to clients, and then even down to their frontline staff, as well as their leadership. And then from there of, all right, now I can pull in more research, I can pull in more anecdotes as I'm seeing them as I'm doing interviews on my own podcast and seeing things that kind of justify the things that I talk about. And then the manuscript became long enough to be a book.

Josiah I love what you touched on in the sense of a framework, because even if you're, let's say, a lodging provider, and you have a very small bed and breakfast or hotel, at some point, you need to codify how you operate, right? Because you're going to bring in help most likely at some point. At some point, that person is going to leave and a new person is going to come in. But the vast majority of people are listening, and have a much bigger operation, right? And you need to do this at scale. And you need to think about what's going to work for the experience we want to provide. And so training becomes important, and frameworks become essential. This is why operations is so critical. That being said, you call the book the hospitality mentality. And I feel like that choice of words is really interesting to me. Why lead with this notion of mentality versus a framework?

Josh Yeah, well, first of all, it sounds nice. So anytime I said the title, they're like, Oh, like, that's got a nice ring to it. But you're absolutely right. It is about the mentality. And a lot of the core components of my training workshop really acknowledge that If you are working in hospitality, whether it is a hotel, it is a restaurant, it is a theme park, it is an aquarium, whatever it is, to your point, there's the operations and the operational dynamic of it that leads to consistency. From that consistency, there is a routine. From that routine, there are repeatable processes. There's kind of this joke of ride operators on a roller coaster. I'm pushing buttons. You know, I push the button, and the ride goes. I push the button, and the ride goes. Obviously, it's a little bit more complex than that. But here you take someone, put them into an environment where so many people are having, maybe it's a once-in-a-lifetime experience, or at a very minimum, it is something that is so different from their daily routine, the guests that are coming and visiting. And now you have an employee who is pushing the button, the ride goes push the button, the ride goes or, you know, flip the burger, get it out, you know, and whatever, you know, checking the next guest, they click this button on the screen, it becomes very routine. And when it becomes routine, it feels more ordinary. And when it feels so ordinary, oftentimes the job feels redundant. And when the job feels redundant, that's when the service culture really starts to slip because it's not that the employees are doing anything wrong. They're just so used to doing what they're doing and seeing what they're seeing that we get into the employee mentality of my alarm clock goes up, I wake up and I go to work. at my job that sometimes I deal with frustrating guests, sometimes I deal with it being too hot or too cold, or it's perfect weather and I'm inside. And if we sort of take a step back, and we recognize, okay, if we have this hospitality mentality, now we acknowledge, hey, just because I do this every day, I need to intentionally recognize that the people that I'm serving do not do this every day. And this is very different from their routine, whether they're on vacation or they're traveling for business. This is not their wake-up and go to work, even though it is for me. So that's where kind of this idea of the hospitality mentality came into place of acknowledging, you know, recognizing your guests don't need you. You know that your guests don't need you. But how often are you actually thinking about that? Nobody needs to come stay in a hotel or dine in a restaurant or visit a theme park. But the employees that work there, they do have to get up and go to work there every single day. So as we pull back from that and recognize, all right, this person that I'm seeing, because I see people every single day, if I acknowledge that they don't need to be here, and they could have done so many other things aside from being here right now, that puts me in a state of mind to now deliver the experience with the service standard that we're striving to achieve with every single guest.

Josiah I want to get into that, but I also want to call out something that strikes me as you're talking about this. There's a certain nature of this that feels very timeless. Whether it is 100 years ago or 100 years from now, this is going to remain true because I think it's something about the human condition. But it also strikes me as we're recording now in later 2023, It feels very timely in the sense that I'm hearing from more and more people, not only the sense of, I might be redundant. I think that maybe you might feel that on the front lines, you might feel it elsewhere. I feel like there's a whole new sections of people that are maybe doing different lines of work that are afraid of maybe advances of technology or AI and starting to feel this as well. So it feels, as you're saying this, kind of regardless of the reason, there could be a lot of motivations behind this. And there's an opportunity to show up in the world a little bit differently to not just feel the sense of redundancy or, you know, does my work even matter?

Josh Yeah, 100%. I, you know, I was giving a keynote the other day and I was talking about this and saying, that there are so many technological advances. And we're talking about AI, and we're talking about reducing labor. And I even did a session at a conference last year called Doing More With Less, because at this point now, wages have gone up exponentially just since pre-pandemic. And whereas, we can't just raise our prices proportionally with it. So yeah, in many cases, people are having to operate with fewer staff members. And all of that is good as technology allows us to be more efficient, as long as we never forget that we're in the people business. There are certain positions that would be a detriment if you eliminate A, from a revenue and sales standpoint of being able to have an expert tell you what more you can spend money on, but also just why are people immersing themselves in the hospitality industry anyway, as a guest. And a lot of that is because of the human-to-human component. Hopefully, it is timeless, but also I feel it's timely as well. So I appreciate that you recognize that.

Josiah I feel what you've described hopefully has captured the attention of hospitality leaders. They understand that there is an opportunity here to differentiate themselves and stand out and deliver all these business benefits that you've talked about. I wonder before we get into talking about how you exceed guest expectations, we could speak a little bit to the people who are listening that are maybe early in their career. Maybe they're not managers or leaders in some capacity. They don't see themselves as such. Why should they keep listening? Is there an opportunity here on an individual level to embody these principles and do well for yourself, let's say in your career?

Josh Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can look at this from a few different angles. But first, I mean, we could talk about just the internal fulfillment component of it. When you are in a position to be able to create an experience for someone that leaves a memory, the drive home from work that day is going to feel so much more energetic than you come in and do your job and then leave and just try to, you know, power through the hours, which then leads to wanting to get out of bed the next morning and jump into it. And whether it is on the proactive side of exceeding expectations, or whether it is on the service failure recovery side, I mean, I can tell you just some of the greatest moments for me have been when there was somebody who was extremely dissatisfied and maybe wrote a scathing letter that was several pages long and it was my job to call them. Yeah, it sounds intimidating on the front end, but when you just rock through that resolution process, man, are you just standing a little taller and just feeling a little bit better about yourself of knowing, yeah, you helped the organization, but no, you really helped a person that needed something fixed and you were able to really be that superhero who swooped in. As it relates to career advancement, the more you do that, the more opportunities you have to be able to share that with your coworkers and with your team. And that gets recognized and that leads to advancement and promotion, provided that you're able to break it down and say, hey, here's why this works. And here's how we can duplicate it, because it can't just be me who's putting out all these fires or, you know, creating all these wow experiences. But being able to, I would say, galvanize a team around you to be able to do it, I think, can lead to amazing leadership opportunities.

Josiah I'm sold. I want to know more. I'm bought in. I think there's potential here. And all the drafts that you talked about writing for this book are showing because as I'm reading through this is jam-packed of so many ideas. I wonder if we maybe just touch on a couple of them, though, to this notion of saying, okay, on a personal level, I see opportunity for myself. I see opportunity in my organization as a leader. I'm on board. What are some ways that I can start exceeding my guests' expectations?

Josh Yeah, so in the book, I cover a few ways. And I really wanted to distill it down, because if you really think about it, like you didn't create a very long list of how do we exceed expectations. But I think that there are a few things that are easy to operationalize. So a few that when you implement them, you can deliver them consistently, they have the ability to be delivered consistently. And when that happens, you tend to see the experience and the guest's perception of the experience rise above what it was they expected, even if it's only by a little bit. So yeah, there's a whole chapter on wow moments, and I can talk about that because I think they have the most impact. But there's also a lot of very small things that when the guest adds them up in their head, you know, figuratively speaking, at the end of the visit, And he'd be like, you know, I had a very high expectation coming into it. But what I experienced is actually even beyond that. And maybe they can't necessarily pinpoint that aside from saying, oh, wow, all those employees are friendly. So it's like, OK, well, what was it specifically that they did? You know, a few of them include personalizing the experience, which is where you make the guests feel like they're the only ones that matter, even if it's only for a brief moment. Something like that can be engaging in further conversation. Something like that can be about using the guest's name. Something like that can be about making personal recommendations based on what you've learned from the guest. So it can be about building that rapport with someone else so they know that they are not just another customer at a large organization, but, hey, now I'm actually kind of making a friend and someone who is doing something a little bit beyond perhaps what that checklist is that they need to be doing. Another piece is about being more enthusiastic than the guest. So we talk about, hey, you got to get out there and you got to be enthusiastic. And it's not just about being as enthusiastic as the guest, but ideally striving to be even more excited that you're there than even the guest is. And that spills over into the guest's enthusiasm. And I share a few examples from that, because this is where that feeling of redundancy, where we have to intentionally combat that. I was checking into a hotel once, a property I was consulting for, destination property, iconic location. And I went in, the lobby was very busy, and I waited. I think maybe 15 to 20 minutes to check in because I got there at peak time. But, you know, I could see everyone around here, you know, they've got their suitcases, they just landed from, you know, I'm hearing multiple languages happening, you know, all around me. And, you know, I finally get up at the front desk. And I said, I'm here, I'm checking in. And the front desk agent looked at me and said, ID and credit card, please. And it's like, okay, that was the right thing to say, because that was what was needed in order to do the check-in. But I was like, Hmm, I'm acting like I'm more enthusiastic to be here than than the individual on the other side of the counter, I might be the hundredth 500th person that you know that you've checked in today. But going back to that personalized experience, if I can be made, like, I feel like the only one that matters in that moment, and your enthusiasm is even higher than mine, it actually kind of validates the decision of why I chose to come here or why someone might choose to stay at this property because of the level of enthusiasm the team has for guests who are staying there.

Josiah  I'm curious. So, what is around adapting this to brands? Because you work across such a span of brands. And then I want to talk about kind of maintaining that energy level. But maybe starting with adapting this, because you talked about this being an iconic resort, and there are others that probably are a different concept. How do you think about adapting that to this wide range of businesses and where people might find themselves working?

Josh So I give another example, you know, shortly after that of I walk into a small burger restaurant. And I walked in there and I was the only one there. And the girl sees me from the counter and she's like, Hey, welcome. You know, like, yeah, we can talk about, hey, you should be excited. You should be enthusiastic. But the reason why this sticks out in my mind is she says, Have you ever been here before? I said, No, it's my first time. She goes, Your first time. I'm so glad you're here. That's amazing. And I'm like, how long have you like, is this your first day as well? She goes, no, we opened it, you know, about a year ago. I've been here since around the start. So I'm thinking, I'm like, all right, this might be your 200th day working here, but you're treating it like your first day, right? And then not only was she excited about being there and excited to talk to me, but she was so proficient about the menu to the point where this is really why this is important from a business standpoint. my check size was way higher than I expected to be when I walked in there. And I'm not saying that because I was upset that I was upsold. I'm saying that because I was so impressed with the way that she enthusiastically walked me through all of these possible circumstances I could have from ordering a burger, fries, and a drink. It's about preserving that first-day feeling. So when I talk about this with, you know, with a group of staffers, I always say, do you remember what it felt like on your first day working here or even prior to that? If you came here as a guest, you remember what that energy is like and what that enthusiasm is like. And our goal is to preserve that first-day feeling. We need to walk into work acting as if it is our first day of employment. Otherwise, yeah, the job's going to be redundant. And you're going to be looking at your watch saying, how many more hours do I have until I clock out? When's my lunch break? If we can build up that enthusiasm, then that shift passes by so much quicker to the point where you should be upset to go home. You say, no, I want to keep going because I am more and more energy. The job is energizing, not draining energy from me.

Josiah That's great. For those listening, I think what you mentioned about the check size being large is also really important because sometimes when we talk about guest experience, it becomes, I don't know, like this nice to have thing and maybe it's hard to prioritize from a business or investment perspective. But I think we can all get behind earning more money and doing it in a way where you, it sounds like, in this example, you were happy to because you felt like you were listened to, you were introduced maybe to new things you didn't know they had. And so it felt like everybody wins there. I'm curious for the people providing the hospitality, maybe on the front lines, how do you maintain that? I think you touched on this a little bit, but that seems tough to maintain that level of excitement over time.

Josh And that's why I kind of go back to the question a little bit ago of this idea of the hospitality mentality. It requires this intentional almost flip of recognizing why you're there, recognizing why the guest is there, and that every single time a guest asks a question of where's the bathroom, of saying, okay, that can get old really fast. And it requires those ongoing reminders with yourself that you get to do something and see something every single day that the people you're serving do not get to do. So it allows you to kind of feel a little bit more fortunate. I tell that to the clients that I work with who, if they're in zoos or aquariums, they get to see these unbelievable animals up close every single day that these people are so excited to see. In theme parks, the fact that you get to be around rides and roller coasters and get to be a part of that every single day. If you're a destination hotel that's on the beach, you're literally getting up and you're going to the beach every day. If you're a skydiving instructor, People are jumping out of a plane, you know, for a living. So it is acknowledging the things that you get to see and do every single day, we want to make sure we stay excited about those things because the people we're serving, they don't do this every day.

Josiah Yeah, it's a great reminder. And I appreciate you talking about kind of the details of how we get there, because it creates this good environment for you providing hospitality, it creates a good environment for the people that you're serving. So it's a win all the way around. I wonder if we could touch on one more element that you get into in the book is around anticipating guest needs. How might our listeners do this well?

Josh Yeah, so this is where we need to remind ourselves that our guests don't know what they don't know, which means that they may not necessarily know what questions to ask. And if they do ask questions, they might not even be asking the right questions that will actually get them the right answer. So it's acknowledging that, yeah, not only are you going to be more enthusiastic than the guest and share your energy, but also to share your proficiency as well. And use your expertise, your proficiency and awareness, combined with sometimes it's common sense that maybe the guest isn't bringing to them. are bringing with them when they come visit you. So maybe it's a question that they should be asking that they're not. Maybe it's a question that they are asking that maybe doesn't actually fit the construct of what it is that you're doing. You know, examples that I use often is the amount of times I've seen people carry a wheelchair or a stroller up a flight of stairs occupied when there's an elevator or ramp right around. Some of those things, they seem obvious to us. One of the things I did in a recent workshop is I asked everyone to pull out a sheet of paper and say, state the obvious. List out all the things that are extremely obvious to everyone in the room here. Now we need to ask ourselves, are we going to assume that the guest knows this as well? Are we going to recognize that not only are they doing something they don't do every single day, but because of that, they're in a very unfamiliar environment? And we need to, yeah, of course, we need to welcome them into our environment. But we do it, we need to do it in a way that allows us to be the experts and make sure that they know how to have the best experience. Because if we don't do that, and yeah, there's that family who carries the wheelchair or stroller up the stairs, they, they might think at the end of the day, you know, let's go somewhere else next time. Because this, you know, it wasn't actually easy to, you know, maneuver around the building or something like that. And you can say, no, we could have anticipated that we could have fixed that. So obviously, that's one of a billion examples of using your proficiency and awareness to answer questions that the guest doesn't know to ask.

Josiah I like that example, though, because I'm always fascinated by where do you go for inspiration as you think about experience design and the way that you'll provide service. So I think that the exercise that you described is a practical example. I wonder if a final area we could touch on is this notion of using guest complaints to grow your business further, because I think that's another source that could be mined for opportunity.

Josh Absolutely. So this goes back, I was talking about the research and sort of the academic studies that have been on this. And there's a concept that has resonated with me so well over the years, and it's called the recovery paradox. And what the research showed was that people and this, of course, goes across multiple different industries. But if you have a poor experience, and you complain about it, you speak up, you make someone know of your experience, or at least someone becomes aware of a poor experience, and it is properly recovered, the level of satisfaction on the other end of that is higher than guests who come in and they have a satisfactory experience with no actual friction points. That, to me, I think is one of our biggest advantages. I had a manager many years ago who said to me, Josh, we've gotten three complaints in the last couple weeks or so, what are we getting to get zero complaints? Nothing. Like I want more. We're not getting enough complaints. The more complaints we're getting, our satisfaction levels are skyrocketing. And I know that that sounds so backward, which is why I love talking about it, because it's not necessarily second nature to any of us until we realize, oh, this is what we can see if we do this. It's not just about fixing a problem. It's actually about regaining confidence and satisfaction. I was doing a workshop a few months ago for a group of family entertainment centers. So it's like, arcade, sports bar, you know, type of place. And I'm walking through this, you know, with the frontline staff. And the general manager, he raises his hand, he's like, Josh, so sorry, I have to interrupt you. And he turns to his team. And he goes, you guys see, coming in here often, he like lists off like six people's names I was like, yeah, yeah, some of our most loyal guests. He's like, yeah, their first time here was a really bad experience. But he goes, everything that we're talking about here from this recovery paradox is so true. We see it because those are some of our most loyal guests. They come in here every single week. You all know them by name. They know you by name. So this idea that complaints should be avoided, I really try to strike that down as firmly as possible and say, No, you need more complaints, because when you effectively resolve them, which of course, I've walked through, you know, some effective recovery strategies, it's good for business. If you get a review, TripAdvisor, Google Reviews, or Yelp, whatever that says, You know, I came there and X, Y, Z happened. But Josiah, man, let me tell you of just how well he resolved my issue. And I'm so thankful that he jumped in. I'm so thankful I complained. That's a really good review. The fact that there was actually a complaint or an issue almost becomes irrelevant because now they're so excited. They're so satisfied with the recovery and the recovery becomes more memorable than the complaint. This is a soapbox I can stay on for a long time. Cut me off, whatever. But that's how I feel about it. Yeah.

Josiah I like it a lot because I used to work at a company that did online review management. And obviously, there's a lot of sensitivity around some of this stuff being public, but you talk about the opportunity there. And I think if I'm kind of reading between the lines, there could be an opportunity to solicit some of this feedback and maybe more of a private setting, maybe it's conversations text messages, something like this, that you can kind of intercept some of this stuff before it's in a public forum. But even if it's in a public forum, what I'm hearing from you is, don't freak out. There's an opportunity you can respond to that review, you can make changes and still turn around the situation, even if it's public, it sounds like.

Josh And not only can you do it, but it also absolutely emphasizes the need to do it. Because it's public, your recovery is now happening in the arena. It's in the spotlight. So now when people are looking at reviews, and you know, there's so many stats on there, I'm just gonna 90% 93% or whatever, people, you know, who look at reviews before making a purchase decision, they see that negative review, they want to know, okay, is this a fluke? Or, you know, is this really how it is? And the only way they can really determine based on that decision is how well it's responded to. So responding to reviews online with empathy and acknowledging, here's the tricky thing, if it's a review online, and maybe you weren't there, you didn't see it. you can't confirm or deny that it happened or not. But you can at least acknowledge that if it happened, you could recognize why they might be frustrated and what they are describing does not meet your standard. So that right there, what needs to be in almost like every negative review response is that what you are describing does not meet our standard. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. If it happened, it's not normal. This is me telling you that it's not normal and telling everyone else that it's not normal. And then jumping into kind of the rest of the response strategy from there.

Josiah I love it. Josh, I'll link to your social media accounts, website and the show notes. Encourage people to check out this book. Is there any final closing advice you'd have for people who want to get started on this journey towards having more of a hospitality mentality and acting this way?

Josh Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about kind of this idea that your guests don't need you. So we need to acknowledge that our guests don't need us. And they can do literally anything else aside from visiting us because it's not just limited to your direct competitors. I can stay home and watch Netflix and just be just fine with it. So our guests don't need us. They can do anything else aside from visiting us. And the actions that we take through our service and service delivery need to show the guest how well we recognize those first two.

Josiah I love it. I love it. Josh, thanks for taking some time to chat. This has been a ton of fun.

Josh Thanks so much for having me. Love talking to you.