Top Exec Recruiter: How To Hire Hospitality Leaders (Plus Career Advice For You) - Alison Harrigan, Korn Ferry

Alison: I always knew I wanted to be in hospitality. I think I was one of those rare people who knew in high school I wanted to pursue the industry. I went to school for hospitality. While I was in school for hospitality, I interned with the Ritz-Carlton and absolutely fell in love with the brand, and ended up taking my first role after college opening a Ritz-Carlton residential property in Colorado, and had my stint in operations there. I then went on to work for the real estate developer, Vail Resorts Development Company, that was building the Ritz-Carlton and building several other luxury developments in the Colorado area.
And we wrapped up about my third project that I was working on with Vail Resorts, and one of the owners that I had sold a residential condo to said, "Have you ever thought about executive search?" I didn't know anything about it. That's the way a lot of people are before they started in the industry. And I started to do some research. I found out that Korn Ferry was the biggest and the best firm, and I reached out to a couple of different firms, and I ended up getting a job with Korn Ferry, and I moved to New York, and that was about nine years ago to work for Korn Ferry in our hospitality in real estate practice.
And like you said, over the last nine years, I've had the chance to work on over 200 executive searches. So that's anything from board and CEO searches for some of the companies that you mentioned and many others, as well as chief operating officer, chief marketing officer, chief financial Officer, chief development, chief investment officers, and kind of everything that falls in that category.

Josiah:
It's really important because those C-suite leaders to a large extent define the brands, the companies that we experience in hospitality. Right? So making sure you have the right fit there is so important. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about why you decided to work at an executive recruiting firm versus in-house at a brand. What are some of the pros and cons of, I guess, for our listeners, working with a firm like yours as opposed to doing this in-house?

Alison:
Absolutely. So the job of an executive search consultant, mine specifically is fascinating for two main reasons. One is that we get this kind of bird's eye view of the industry.
So imagine we're doing a chief investment officer search for a hotel owner operator, or hotel investment firm. And over the course of two to three weeks when we're really in the launch phase of a search, I'm talking to 30 or 40 chief investment officers of other lodging companies, other real estate companies, maybe talking to five, six a day.
And in those conversations, I'm learning about their careers, but I'm also learning about what they're dealing with. Maybe right now, the gridlock in the market, what's on their hearts and minds, what's challenging them.
And so through the course of every search, we get this really comprehensive picture of what's happening in the industry and what's happening inside each of those organizations.
A lot of that is a confidential conversation. A lot of what we do is really highly confidential and involves a lot of discretion. But we get this fascinating overview look of any segment of the industry.
Likewise, we're working on a couple of different chief marketing or chief commercial officer searches right now. We're getting to see what's happening in AI, and digital marketing, and revenue management across all of these different companies and seeing, "Wow, this group's doing something that's truly innovative. This group probably could catch up a little bit." And so that's one fascinating part of it.
The second is that we build these relationships with executives over the course of their careers. So some of the candidates or the executives that I've placed in the last year, I've known for 10, 15, even longer than that. And we stay in touch with them. We develop these relationships. Even if I haven't placed them into a role, I get to know them over the course of time.
And so when I bring them an opportunity or bring them a search, they know it's just not kind of a random outreach to them lobbing something their way. It's really thoughtful about, "Hey, I know you said that you wanted to move from development into operations," or, "I know you said you wanted to move from asset management into acquisitions. This is an opportunity that could do that for you." And both of those pieces add a lot of value to the client.
So to back up and to talk about why you use an executive recruiter in the first place if you already have an in-house talent team, first of all, we work hand in hand with the in-house human resources, or people, or talent acquisition teams on every search that we do. And it's not that your in-house talent team or HR team isn't equipped to do recruitment or to do search. There's just a couple of benefits that come with hiring an executive search consultant. Those that I just mentioned, the deep market expertise and the relationship with the candidates.
Another is just having an objective third party running a search process for you who can be completely third party about the process in general. About half of our searches are confidential, so maybe we're replacing somebody who doesn't know they're being replaced yet, or the organization at large doesn't know that somebody is retiring. It's hard to have somebody from XYZ company reach out to you and keep that kind of confidentiality. And that's often why we're hired.
And the last reason we're hired too is just time. Your talent team, your HR team is stretched right now. And the process of hiring an executive is taking even longer than it ever has, and you really need a dedicated person, team group that is focusing on that on your behalf.
The last thing that's actually really interesting, and this isn't I think a reason anyone goes into hiring an executive search firm, but let's just go back to the chief investment officer example. We're talking to 30 or 40 CIOs over the course of three weeks. Talking about their careers, talking about what they're doing, what they're seeing in the market, etc. We're also maybe talking to them about the opportunity or the job that we call them about, and we're getting their feedback on the role and the company.
And so to the extent that we're able, keeping in place anonymity, we can share some of that feedback with the client and say, "Hey, people really love your brand, they love your hotels, but they haven't really seen you do many deals recently. So all of these chief investment officers are interested in the opportunity, but they're a little bit worried about your appetite for investing new capital, or for a CEO search. They want to know if the founder really truly wants to make a transition out." And so we can share some of that feedback. Sometimes candidates are going to be a little less willing to be as transparent with your in-house talent person, because they're part of the company, which is completely normal.

Josiah:
Makes a lot of sense. Another thing I'd be curious to get your take on is I hear a lot of people talk about we want to promote from within, and we want to make sure that there's this path to senior leadership for people that are working their way up the ranks within the company. At the same time, as you mentioned, you've placed hundreds of candidates, you're working with leading hotel companies across the spectrum to recruit talent.
I wonder if you could speak to some of the benefits your clients are seeing from bringing in outside talent. Why do that versus promote from within, in some cases? I think you may have alluded to a number of the factors here, but anything else come to mind, I guess, on that?

Alison:
For almost every research that we do, there are internal candidates. And we push our clients, even if they have already come to us and said we want to do a search because we don't think that there is anyone internally to succeed the CEO. We would push them to say, "Are you sure? Have you thought about everyone?" If it's a not confidential process, "You should open this up to the team so that everyone in the company has the opportunity to interview for this role." And going through the extensive process that an executive searches is a great experience for anyone at that maybe SVP or VP level.
So we really push our clients to think about all of the internal options. And very often a company will come to us and say, "We have four internals that are interested in the role and want to apply. We also want to look outside the company for both reasons."
And I would say most of our clients, especially in hospitality, it's such an industry where people do come up the ranks, especially in operations, in finance and marketing. That if it is at all possible to promote somebody internally, that's how our clients would prefer to go. And I think we all would prefer that.
And we can talk a little bit about the retained search model and why for us as a recruiter, it doesn't matter if it's an internal candidate or an external candidate. But putting that aside for a second, the reason that people I think choose external candidates at the end of the day over internal candidates is because they're bringing a set of experiences, skills from another organization that this company wants to bring.
So let's just say there's a hospitality organization that is looking to be more digitally focused, more customer experience focused, and they don't have anyone in the organization with that capability set today, they're looking to make a major transformation. They would want to bring in somebody who's going to have that kind of capability set from the outside.

Josiah:
Makes a lot of sense. And I'm a big believer in the best person for that role should be there, regardless of if it's an internal candidate, which it may be because you have the organizational knowledge and relationships. So maybe that is internal. But it also could be external. I know organizations I've been a part of, when you have a talented person from another company join, it does a lot of things. You kind of just feel like the overall caliber of talent within the company is going up. You feel some positive momentum.
So I've seen a lot of benefits to both, but I think what you're getting at is it should be the best person, almost regardless of what path they got there. It's best for the organization to be the very best person in that role.
And I wonder if we could circle back a little bit to the incentives that you alluded to. So how do you structure the retained search model such that there's that alignment of incentives to have the best person in the role?

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely. So there's generally two recruitment models, contingent and retained. A contingent search firm is somebody who you hire to look for candidates on your behalf, and they get paid once they find somebody. So they're sending you resumes or sending you candidates. And if they find the right candidate, you end up hiring someone that they send to you, that's when they get paid.
Korn Ferry, and many of our competitors, and many of the larger search firms in the space are not like that, but they are instead a retained search firm, which means essentially we get paid almost a flat fee at the beginning of the search. So no matter what happens, no matter if we hire an internal, no matter if we hire someone we find, no matter if we hire somebody that somebody on the executive team knows or someone on the board knows, we still get paid that flat fee. And that makes sure that A, we're working on the search until it's done. So we'll talk about timeframe, but sometimes these searches take over a year, and we're working on that search until it's done. But B, we have no motive about who we're hiring. We're not gunning for an external gain and over an internal. We just want the best solution for the company and we want the company to be successful.

Josiah:
Let's talk a little bit about how that process works. It could be for CEO, or you tend to work on the CEO level, you meant board level, C-suite level. But maybe let's use CEO as an example here. What does that typical CEO search process look like?

Alison:
Yeah, because we see these moves in the news on any of the news platforms that we look at. We see these big CEO or leadership team announcements, and we think that they just tap in, or we think that somebody in the company knew them, or we see somebody get promoted and we think it just happened overnight. And sometimes that's the case. Most of the time though, it's a very thorough and scientific process getting to that person. And so I'll walk you through some of the steps.
The most important part is the alignment at the beginning of the search. So when we take on... And this is all time dependent. Sometimes there's an emergency situation and someone needs to be hired really quickly, but let's say we're doing a kind of thorough search process. At the beginning of the search, we'll have alignment conversations with board members, key stakeholders, executive team members, sometimes even direct reports into the role, to get their perspective on the position, on what's needed in the role, what's needed in the company, where the company is headed, where the company wants to be in five years. We take all of that information, we create a report about that for the company, but we also put that into the job description.
So now we have the job description, we've kind of aligned on the key criteria for the position. And what we will do as a search team is put together a very comprehensive mapping of all of the potential candidates for the role. For a chief marketing officer, chief operating officer, chief development officer search, that could be 150 potential people. Maybe not all of them, but all of them we want kind of captured in the universe. Maybe for a public company CEO search, that would be 50 people that there's in that target universe. We haven't reached out to anyone yet.
Now we take that mapping, we go over it with the hiring team or the board. And then we pick usually the top 20 to 30 candidates, if that. Maybe it's even less, sometimes it's three, that everyone can agree on, and we reach out to those candidates.
And so all of our outreach is really, really targeted and strategic. Every now and again, if we're doing a public company search, we'll have somebody come to us and say, "Hey, I heard you're working on the XYZ search. Could I be considered as a candidate?" But for the most part, we are doing proactive outreach to candidates who we don't know if they're interested in looking for a role or not. We are contacting them, because we think they are great fits for the role based on the criteria that we've decided upon. And because we know them, and because we know that there might be a fit.
And then from there, it's multiple interviews with our team. It's multiple interviews with the client and the company. Some of those begin on Zoom. All throughout this process, we are conducting formal references, so that's references that the candidate gives to us as their references. And we're also building our discreet, or soft, or indirect references, and some people call that back channeling. We can talk about that a little bit. We're doing that all throughout the process.
We also have an assessment tool. A lot of companies use different assessment tools. We have one that's proprietary to Korn Ferry. We're administering that to the top candidates.
And then once we get to a final selection, we are helping the company negotiate and structure the offer for the candidate. So we're helping them come up with the offer. We're delivering the offer to the candidate, and then we're most often acting as the go-between to negotiate the offer.
And then the most important part of the search is after the candidate starts, is that it's really important that we stay in touch and that we continue to connect with these candidates, and make sure that they're successful, they're happy, make sure we still meet with the hiring team and make sure they're happy and doing well, and maybe fix any kind of misalignment there is there. And that's what a search looks like.

Josiah:
This is the whole process, right? Very holistic process, and you're thinking about each stage of the journey. Tell me a little bit more about back channeling. This sounds interesting. What does that look like?

Alison:
I think it's one of the reasons that we get hired frequently, is because I think referencing is a crucial part of any search process. Even if you don't hire a search consultant and you can only do the referencing on the direct references that the candidate hands to you, call them and spend as much time as you can with them on the phone. Don't just call them and do the five-minute conversation. If the candidate has given you their name as a reference, those people are open to setting aside times. Stay on the phone with them and continue to ask them questions. You'll be shocked at what comes out, both positive and sometimes negative, or sometimes just great things to know in advance about these people.

Josiah:
How do you push beyond the typical... Yeah, those calls often are way too short. I've been the recipient of many of those calls. What is your process for doing a good reference check that goes a little bit longer?

Alison:
Right. Well, so I mean if you think about it, let's say 200 searches in the last 10 years or so, or even more, sometimes we do references on three or four candidates of search. Sometimes I do seven reference calls for each candidate. So it's a lot of reference calls over the years.
I mean, one of my tricks is that I don't read off a sheet of questions. I just let the reference E or the person giving the reference freeform a little bit about their experience working. So I'll say, "Tell me about just generally your observations and your experience working with Susie." And sometimes people will go on for 10, or 15, or 20 minutes just there and you're not asking them leading questions like, "How was Susie as a leader or how did Susie manage up? Is Susie a good communicator?" They're just freeform telling you.
And then they might say some interesting things there that you can pick up on. They'll say, "Susie had such a team following that she's had the same team at three different companies." And you can say, "Tell me a little bit more about that. Why do you think Susie builds such a following?" You can kind of pick up on little things that they say. I just try not to ask leading questions.
And then once the person giving the reference is done speaking, I always say, "Well, anything else you would want to share about Susie?" And that's when the more content comes out of those conversations.
But the referencing conversations are some of the most rewarding calls I get to make any day, and I think they're really important. On the soft referencing side, so soft referencing, back channeling, discrete referencing, it's all the same thing. It's collecting references on people that the candidate didn't give you directly.

Josiah:
Is that more important, going beyond? Because I assume people are going to give you the glowing reviews, but it seems this is a really important piece of it.

Alison:
It's a really important piece, but it's also very, very tricky, because we do not want to betray the candidate's trust. We in no way want to endanger. Most of our candidates are currently employed. We in no way want to speak to anyone from their current company or endanger their current role, if they haven't already decided that they're leaving.

Josiah:
So how do you do that? It seems so hard.

Alison:
And so what is beneficial about working with somebody like a third party, like an executive search consultant, is that we build these relationships over time, that we have so much context on these candidates. And years of hearing their name from other people, years of hearing about their reputation from other people, and we take a note of that.
Every time I talk to a candidate and they say, "Well, then I followed Josiah from company A to company B because I loved working for him." I'm making a note about to go in Josiah's file about that person saying something like that. And so over time, we have this repository of referential context on these candidates that we've collected.
We also have just deep relationships in the industry with people that we trust and go to as references for other candidates. Again, not at the candidate's current company. But because I have so much history in the hospitality industry, I can say, "I bet that person probably worked with that person, and I really trust that person." It might be helpful to call them and ask them if they have any background on this executive, and that's another way that we can get those indirect references.
Again, it's really hard for your in-house talent team to do that and maintain confidentiality of all the parties involved. So I think that's another reason that we often get hired.

Josiah:
It's very complex and there's a lot of sensitivities to that. One thing I would love to get your take on is how you sort of sell the role to a candidate. Because I'm curious what is resonating with people, and I find the best recruiters I've seen do a really good job of painting a good picture, an accurate picture, but a compelling picture of why consider uprooting yourself and making this move. And I feel like there's a lot of things that you could use to describe a role, but what are you finding as you're communicating some of these roles, that you find candidates are, "Okay, that's interesting. Let's keep talking."

Alison:
This is a great question, and I would say this to anyone on my team when they come into the recruiting space. At this level, we should never be selling a role. No one wants to be sold a position at this level. It's a major life move for them. They might be, like you said, uprooting from their current company, uprooting their family. They don't want to be sold anything, or we don't want to be selling.
What we do want to do is understand what the critical issues are at the company, where the company is headed, what they want to achieve, and how that fits with this person, and this person's background, skills, and experiences, and what they want to achieve in their career. Again, that takes a long history with these executives, getting to know them, studying them as individuals, both through conversation or just studying their careers. And saying, "This is a president role of a founder led company, and they just got private equity investment. And I know in our last conversation, you know you're a chief development officer now, but you said to me that you want to move into a president, or a COO, or some sort of broader leadership position. I think this is a great opportunity for you to do that. They're looking for someone with development experience." And putting those things together. So you're demonstrating how there's a win-win for both. And I think throughout the process, we want to give space to both the companies and the candidates to make sure that this is the right fit for them.
I think a huge part of this is that we're not pushing anyone into a role at any time. We want everyone to get the most information they can on either the candidate or the company, and make sure that they're able to make a completely transparent, eyes wide open decision about something.
There's absolutely been situations I've been in where I feel like a candidate is kind of not quite feeling secure in the new role, and I'm like, "Well, what other questions do you have? How can we get those questions answered for you?" I want everyone to feel 100% comfortable when they get to that final offer letter that this is the right role for them, that they're comfortable in the move, and that's kind of our goal for every search.

Josiah:
I'm curious what you're seeing or hearing in the market now. I imagine that this process has changed somewhat since the pandemic. I don't want to make this pandemic related necessarily, but I'm just curious, today, are these conversations different? And if so, how, what are you hearing out there?

Alison:
It's a great question. Well, I'll say since 2019, the biggest change to... Well, there's two major changes to the search process. One is that they're just taking longer. In 2019, our average days to close an executive search from the time that the company signs the contract with us to when the candidate signs the offer letter was about 85 to 90 days, and now it's inching closer to 110. And we've worked on searches in the last year that have gone over a year, and there's a couple of reasons for that.
One is that because a lot of the introductory interviews are happening over Zoom now, which was not actually that commonplace prior to 2019, you can just interview more people because it's lower stakes, where you're not flying either five to 10, or 15 people out for an initial interview. You can do more interviews over Zoom.
I also think that clients are interviewing a broader range of candidates for the role. So where they might be trying to meet specific goals within their organization, or they're wanting to look at a more diverse group of individuals in every single way, and so they're interviewing more people and they're looking beyond just the immediate peer set for a rule.
The other thing that's making searches longer is that most of our clients are involving more people in the interview process now. They really, really want to get consensus among the whole organization on some of these major hires. And that just speaks to general risk averse behavior in the hiring market in general, which is not unique to hospitality, but includes hospitality.
And some of that has to do with just, they want consensus. They want to due diligence these candidates really thoroughly. They want to avoid the next PR disaster when they're hiring these candidates, and they want to build more consensus in the team. So search is taking longer. That's something that's been coming since 2019.
The other thing is, and we don't need to belabor this, but obviously there are a lot of candidates that have started to work remotely since 2019 or 2020, and they're not interested in relocating or they don't feel the need to relocate for a job. Probably between 2015 and 2019, maybe two or three roles I ever completed searches for had a remote option. There are a few more now. But by and large, our clients want their executive team to be at their headquarters or in the office.
And so there's a little bit of the bid-ask spread or there's a little misalignment between candidates and clients right now in terms of the relocation or the need for relocation. And that is a major discussion point in every search that we do right now, whereas it really wasn't in 2019.

Josiah:
Interesting. I find that fascinating. And I guess I would love for our listeners... Let's say they are developing their leadership capabilities, maybe they have aspirations of being a CEO one day. I'm curious, as you listen to clients and you're going through so many of these searches, I imagine there's some factors that you're finding consistent across candidates. There's probably a wide variance, but there's probably a couple of core traits among effective CEO candidates that you've observed. And I'm curious for our listeners that maybe have aspirations of becoming that top leader one day, what advice would you have for someone to develop their careers to ultimately serve in that sort of a capacity?

Alison:
Yeah, it's a great question. I assume if you're listening to this podcast, you know a lot of the main points on developing your career. Be nice to everyone because you don't know when you're going to come across to somebody again. Have a really succinct, snappy elevator pitch about yourself that if a search consultant calls you and says, "Tell me about your career," you can explain it in a short two to three minutes. Do good work, because you get noticed and recommended by other people.
I think some of the reasons that really strong candidates on paper fail in a search process is they don't bring energy to the interview. So possibly, you're having a bad day or something like that. But so often, our clients get so excited about someone on paper, and they say they just really didn't shine in the interview. They didn't bring the energy. It's not because of anything about their background. Their background was great. They just didn't have the charisma or the fire in the belly in the interview setting. So I think that's one thing that makes really stellar CEO candidates stand out.
I think that stellar CEO candidates, they are engaged in the process, but they come to the process with a little bit of confidence about themselves and confidence in their abilities, and they know that this isn't the last opportunity that they're going to have come their way. So they maintain the confidence in themselves.
I think for somebody that is looking to progress in their career, of course, I would say build the relationships with executive search consultants. There's a few of us out there that specialize in hospitality, and it's just great to take the call, to stay on their radars, make recommendations of people that you like and know if you can or if you want to. But build those relationships because like I said, those relationships span decades sometimes. And this is kind of a just career positioning or personal branding thing in general, an unconventional opinion that I have is that less is more on LinkedIn. You want all your jobs, your company, your school, if you went to college, your boards that you sit on, you want those to be clear and integrated. I think a couple bullets about every role that you've had or more is great.
The adjectives, the flair, the headlines, all of that takes away from what you've actually done in your career. So when I go to someone's LinkedIn page, and maybe I'm doing that because I'm looking for a second source of information from their resume, or maybe they're not in our database yet or something, I want to find out what their career progression looks like, their boards, etc. And some of that just distracts from the meat of your career. So I think less is more in terms of LinkedIn.
I do think in the next 10 years, the written resume will become more obsolete and we'll all be using some sort of public domain like LinkedIn to look at each other's background. So I think it's important that you're on there, important you have your jobs. Especially important if your job title doesn't exactly explain everything that you do. So let's say you're a chief development officer, and you're also responsible for all of the GMs or all of the operations. Make sure you say that, so that anyone looking at your background from a recruiting standpoint can have that context.
But the self-awarded accolades, the adjectives, the flair, I think is sometimes distracting and sometimes starts to question everything else, the great things that you've done.
And then I would say, I think for a lot of our CEO candidates and a lot of the CEOs that are really highly sought after in every search that we do, they have built a name for themselves because they've driven results, they've brought great talent to the organization, but also because the people that work for them continually bring their names up in conversation.
So just like I said, how sometimes I'm interviewing someone and they say, "They followed Josiah from company A, company B." If you compound that over 15, 20 people that have worked for you, and they're constantly bringing your name up in conversation, and they can't explain their career without bringing you into it, that's a really strong sign of a great CEO or a great executive.
And so I would say just as much of a... There's always going to be a focus on driving results, working for your boss, your shareholders, etc., your board, but don't neglect the mentor and team relationships that you're building. Because those people are sometimes some of your greatest supporters.

Josiah:
I love it. Before we go Alison, I wonder if we could speak to the board members, the CEOs, other senior leaders. What advice would you have and want to leave our listeners with regards to thinking about upleveling the talent in their organization in the years ahead? Anything that you'd like to leave with them?

Alison:
Yeah, like how executives can bring their talent along?

Josiah:
Well, I guess more in the sense of, if I think back to the beginning of our conversation, we talked about the importance of having the best person in the role, some things to think about there. Just any kind of closing thoughts with a little bit less about how do I necessarily bring people through, but people who are in that capacity maybe to hire a CEO or hire C-suite members. What should they be thinking about right now to make sure that they make sure they have the best talent, I guess, in some of these really important roles?

Alison:
Yeah. Well, I think when you're evaluating your organization from a talent perspective, it comes back to aligning on what the key criteria are for the role. Those key criteria should be linked to your organization's goals at large.
And I think if you're going into a search process and you're leading the search, making sure that the hiring team or anyone interviewing any of those candidates is again, referencing, going back to those key criteria, the four or five things that this person must have to be successful.
And I would recommend making those four or five things not so specific that it leaves you with three potential people in the market that fill that, but that also gives you a little space to potentially look at some of the adjacent industries to hospitality too, if you're having trouble finding the right executive for that role. So I mean, that could be cruise, restaurant, casino, the online travel space, any of the leisure industries.
But I think if you have specific needs for rural, you're not finding what you're looking for in the market, opening the aperture, widening the aperture to look at some of the adjacent industries, retail to hospitality is really, really helpful.
And I guess I would say in terms of making sure that you are capturing the best talent, I absolutely would recommend putting a lot of thought and a lot of effort into the candidate experience that they have in a search process.
So the search process is a reflection of your company's brand in the market. And if you're doing a CEO search, and let's say your company meets with 10 people, or even more than that, are engaged in a managed executive search process, that's up to 20 COOs presidents, CEOs of other organizations that are interacting with your company as a brand. And the way that you carry yourself in that process and the way that you treat them as candidates, it matters. And it really leads a lasting impression in these candidates' mind, even if they don't get the job.

Josiah:
That's great advice. Alison, for people watching or listening to this, where would you point them to learn more about you and your work?

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely. Korn Ferry has a big and broad and beautiful and wonderful website with not only all of our executive search materials, but all of the other lines of business that we offer expertise in, consulting, compensation consulting, leadership assessment, organizational design, and the many other solutions that we have. And so you can find me on the Korn Ferry website or on LinkedIn.

Josiah:
Fantastic. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Alison:
Yeah, thank you for having me.