The Big Shift in Today's Job Market - Matt Gorman, Upshift

Josiah: 0:00

What should you, as a hospitality leader, know about hiring and retaining talent? Today? To help us unpack this, we're joined today by Matt Gorman, Chief Revenue Officer at Upshift. In this episode, we discuss the results of our recent survey on how people outside the industry view a career working in and with hotels and talk about how to attract and keep talented people in your business. Matt. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. I appreciate your support of this research project. You and I have spoken a number of times over the past few months about what you're seeing and hearing as it relates to hiring in hospitality. I'm really excited that we now have the results of this research project here. We're going to talk through it today For anyone who is unfamiliar with what Upshift does, just for a little bit of context, and so people can understand the perspective that you have. Can you tell us a little bit about the company and about your role there?

Matt: 1:12

Yeah, absolutely Well. One thank you for having me. It's been really exciting to work with you the last few months, especially with the research that you've been doing. Yeah, really happy to be a part of it. I'm with Upshift. We are a W2 on-demand labor platform for the hospitality space, the hospitality industry, and we work between just about every major vertical within hospitality. We were essentially designed to support the contract labor, the flexible hiring needs of the hospitality space in about 2016. So the last geez, the last seven, eight years has been quite a ride and we get to see the ups and downs. We get to see the real-life effects of the employment trends, especially as they relate to people in the contract labor space, and that contract labor space in hospitality makes up a significant portion of the hiring that goes on day to day, week to week. So definitely love to be an advocate for the space, Love to be an advocate for the people who work within this space. I don't think that enough eyes get on it, I don't think that enough people hear about it. So I think projects like this are fantastic.

Josiah: 2:16

Well, the talent that we have in this industry, the people are really the core of this business. And just so people understand a little bit of where you work either across the country or a type of hotels or a certain kind of focus you have within the hospitality industry- yeah, absolutely so.

Matt: 2:34

with Upshift, we're in 31 major metros. We work with hotels, hotel management groups, casinos, arenas, venues. We work with just about everyone that would operate in that hospitality space. A large portion of our focus is in food and beverage, although we work with in just about every level of employment that's in that space.

Josiah: 2:55

Excellent. Well, if we could, why don't we jump into kind of going through some of the things that we found in this study? And I guess, as you've been kind of looking at some of the results, I'd be curious to hear what stands out to you.

Matt: 3:07

I think one of the data points that jumps out to me the most was how many people, I guess, just don't consider hospitality right off the bat, and for me, someone's been involved in this space for a long time. It's just not the way that I'm conditioned to think. I'm very used to considering and talking to and working within the hospitality space and we speak with people every day who have never worked within this industry, never worked within this space and have never considered it. And I have a lot of stories about people who have entered into this space who've had amazing experiences, and I think you and I were talking about one of them was just this week and it was someone in the HR space. They worked in the public sector for almost 20 years, so it was in the utility side, big businesses and I was talking to her just yesterday and she said, well, this is my first time working with a hotel. And I said, oh, wow, that's amazing. So what drew you here? And she said, well, someone had reached out to me about a position and you know it's just never something that I considered. I considered it, you know, maybe a little less irregular as far as hours, a little hard to integrate into like a new schedule, that type of thing. And I said, well, how you like in it this has been. She's been there for about a month and she said I wish someone would have let me known about working in this space years ago because I wouldn't have wasted so much time on the other side. So it's definitely interesting. I do think and we see it a lot that this space just doesn't get deep publicity, that it should right. It doesn't get the eyes on it. The amount of open positions in the hospitality space, hotel space, is unbelievable.

Josiah: 4:38

I wanted to ask you about that kind of what you, what you thought to be the barriers where people haven't been thinking about this, and so it sounds like just awareness or communication. There needs to be more Talk of here, the opportunities here, but do you feel like, for an example, the person that you shared, what was it kind of the sense of? I didn't know I could apply my skills in that context?

Matt: 4:57

Yeah, I think that she was under the impression that you needed a specialized skill set to work within human resources at a hotel and, while I'm sure there are definitely some nuances to being in that space, her skills 100% transferred and she was, from the way she described it, so much more happier with the people that were around her, with what she was able to do on a day to day basis, the people that she was working with, that she was able to be Customer facing, which was really interesting to hear someone coming from a large public sector position in human resources interact with the consumer at all and for her that was a big, I'm assuming, like an emotionally charged, you know approach to her day to day. You know she gets to see what her, how her job actually affects the people that are buying the service.

Josiah: 5:43

It's pretty cool it's super cool and I think it's interesting to hear an example in HR somebody working in a people function you know, maybe not thinking about this, but I imagine this is true across many different sectors, many different lines of work, people thinking that their skills may not be Transferable, but there may be. Also is a flexibility question. I think flexibility you know these mandated long, irregular working hours have topped the list of concerns Of people we surveyed. It seems that what you're doing is offering people options and flexibility, to kind of address that. Is that fair?

Matt: 6:16

to say, yeah, that's the name of the game. I think that we figured out a long time ago and I think a lot of people in the space it figured out a long time ago that you are losing a lot of the top quality people who are willing to work in the space because you weren't working within schedules that work for them and being very rigid with what the work schedules were, returning away the quality people that would have stayed otherwise. And you know we can, you know we can break it down to very base level and say, hey, I can work Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, but I can't work Friday, but I come back for you Saturday. Five years ago those people weren't working because those schedules can be Adjusted, and now, with a more flexible model, with people being able to pick up shift based work as opposed to returning schedule type work, you are attracting better talent people who otherwise would not be able to work the jobs. It's been immensely successful for us and you know we've been able to facilitate a lot of just a lot of Long term employment for people who wouldn't have otherwise been able to have it. And for us the goal is for the people who are working in this space, the hospitality employees, hospitality candidates, that they can have predictable and reliable income streams, because that's what they want. They want to be able to predict where their next paycheck is going to come from. They want to be able to rely that that work is there for them and I think previously or years past maybe pre covid, you know that wasn't necessarily something that they could rely on. And now, post covid years, it's becoming more normalized the flexible schedules to retain the talent, and I think it's really smart.

Josiah: 7:50

Yeah, I think to that point, people want a reliable paycheck on on their terms. You know, one of the things that we found in the study was that you know wages or the pay was number one on the list, which is maybe unsurprising. But if you hear a lot of people talk about Recruiting, it's often not talked about, and is all these other things, and I guess for me, looking at this is a bit of the sense. We can't lose sight that money matters, right? You gotta be real about that.

Matt: 8:18

Yeah, I think when everyone talks about flexibility and scheduling and benefits and fringe benefits that come with working in this space a lot, they're jockeying first, second place and they've always been jockeying for second place. Right, compensation is always going to be the number one thing that drives people to a position, but the proximity for second place, the first place is closing right, that flexibility piece used to be five variants below first place and now it's. It's right there. And, yes, can't lose Focus on the compensation piece. You're not gonna flexible schedule your way out of a good wage, but I've never seen, or at least it hasn't been my experience, that the wages are big prohibitor to attracting the people. I think If you wanted to go over the top to draw attention, yes, the compensation is important, but I don't think that the compensation piece is what kept people necessarily from exploring hospitality as a career path. I don't.

Josiah: 9:18

I'm kinda curious to that point, like what are these other variables that matter that hotel leaders should be thinking about?

Matt: 9:26

I actually think that's a really easy answer for me. What most people in the space, most of the candidates, the applicants, the people who are working in these positions what they are looking for is a positive environment, and I know that sounds extremely cliche to say that everyone wants to work in a very positive environment. But People who work shift based jobs, people that work as contract laborers, people that work, you know, one to two days a week, they very rarely get to feel like they're part of the culture of the business, and when you're running divergent cultures, it's very hard to keep talent. It's very hard to attract talent too, and I use this example a lot and this is one I've heard for a long time was, if you were hiring, if you were a major hotel chain, you were hiring a new person, you wouldn't make them sit in the lobby for 30 minutes on their first day. You wouldn't. But that happens every day for people who are entering the space and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. I mean, we truly hear stories about that every day and it's across the board.

Josiah: 10:25

Well, it's interesting because I think maybe you know, there could be this sense of okay, this is maybe somebody joining me on a temporary basis, but to me it seems like you're missing the big picture, right when there may be a bigger opportunity, and is that kind of what you're seeing as well as like don't forget? But I don't treat this as kind of a population that should get less of an experience.

Matt: 10:47

Yeah, well, I mean two reasons there. One, a lot of people who start on a contract basis end up being full time people. It is where a large pool of internal employees come from. It's from the flexible, it's from the contract side, it's from the traditionally temporary side. The other piece is referral and name recognition. You know, when enough people have a bad experience, you have a bad reputation, and while that reputation may not be something that's on Yelp or it's in all of your Google reviews, people talk, people don't apply, people don't come in, they choose other options, and that's a real tangible thing that happens.

Josiah: 11:20

In that point. I cannot underscore it enough, because you know what we found of people working outside the hospitality industry. The number one thing that they found most effective for finding new gigs or job opportunities or career opportunities was that word of mouth right. So this really really matters. Like you may think it matters, but you may not understand how much it matters.

Matt: 11:44

Yeah, referrals in this space are huge and I truly don't think that large operators understand what their brand recognition looks like at an entry level employment perspective. I think a lot of times the focus is on higher level, professional, white collar type jobs right off the bat, creating a very positive brand experience, which is fantastic, but a good portion of the people that work within those businesses are in that middle management or below threshold and their experience is what builds the brand reputation, in my opinion. And when you leave that entire sector, kind of ostracized referrals matter.

Josiah: 12:27

I wonder if we could talk just a little bit more about this, where hotels or hotel companies might be going wrong. And maybe our listeners are at an executive level. It might be a little bit removed from this, but you're talking to people on the front lines and you're hearing things that maybe others don't hear and you mentioned earlier there could be a little less engagement, a little less of a welcoming experience. What are other things that hotels might be doing wrong in this area?

Matt: 12:55

Well, yeah, okay. I think the first part, yeah, is the initial engagement. We did a survey here of a couple thousand upshifters, so people who are working in the space, predominantly in the hotel space and understanding what attracted them to the positions that they were accepting, and then what kept them coming back, what was really important to them versus what they were receiving. And there were three areas that were overwhelmingly. They were overwhelming for everybody. One was the engagement of first day, and it wasn't the engagement from the management team, it wasn't the people that they were reporting to, it was the people that they were surrounded with when they were working on their first day. So they want people who are coming into the space, they want to be working around other people who want to be there, and that was, I think, number one overwhelming answer was that they wanted to be surrounded by people who wanted to be there. So that's one. The second piece was knowing what they were getting into, and we hear a lot that people entering the space don't really know what to expect. They don't know what to expect on their first day. They don't know what to expect in their first six months working there. What's the long term career path that could exist for them, and I know a lot of times we focus on the long term career path but we don't talk a lot about what the first three months looks like, what getting through the first week looks like. What are the expectations? If you're someone who's never been in this space before and never worked in a hotel, what does the first week really look like? How do you know that your first day went well? These are things that I think sometimes we take for granted with people coming into a space because they don't know, and then the last piece again was tying back into understanding what to expect when they first get there, and I guess the last piece that I would bring up was having recognition that they did well, and I know that everyone wants to. That's something that you're gonna hear all the time. They want recognition that they did well, but it's not they want a gold star, they want a trophy right. It's that they want to know that they met the expectations of what they were supposed to do and that you want them back, because nowadays the people in this space they have an opportunity to work anywhere. They can go on mobile platforms like ours. They can see shifts and positions everywhere, at all different operators, and they're picking where to go. They want to come back to the place that was comfortable, but they only want to come back if they feel that you want them back. And that has missed a lot.

Josiah: 15:26

Interesting. Well, it's definitely a worker's market right and it seems like they have their choice of jobs and there's more opportunities than ever. And I think what's really interesting to me hearing about that short term design of the experience is really important in the world of hospitality. Of course, we think a lot about experience design, but it's typically viewed in the context of the guest experience design. So it seems like there's such an opportunity here for employee or associate experience design as well, and I feel like what you're talking about is especially important for those wanting to bring people from outside the industry. Because I've worked in retail or I've worked in construction. I may have no idea, like, maybe I like going to a hotel, but I have no idea what it's like to work there Before I even walk through the door. I want to be brought up to speed a little bit on what I can expect and what it means to do a good job in that role.

Matt: 16:18

Yeah, we hear it day after day. You know how was your first shift and we hear well, I think it went great, but I'm not sure. We probably hear that more than we hear anything else. Well, how come you're not sure? Well, I came in, I did what I was told, what I was shown to do in the morning, I finished my shift and I left. I don't know if they want me to come back tomorrow. I guess I'll check in with them. That's a poor experience.

Josiah: 16:44

What does that do to the worker that doesn't know if they did a good job?

Matt: 16:49

They don't go back to that employer Overwhelmingly so. They go to different employers Because nowadays, what the people in the space are doing is they're trying everywhere before they buy and they're not going to settle anymore because they don't have to. Something I probably say a lot, and it's probably getting very repetitive for a lot of people who talk to me often, is that we hear all the time that people don't want to work in this space. There's not enough people to work anymore. No one wants to work anymore. No one wants to come into the hotel space and work. To me, it's not true. It's that they just don't want to come the way that you want them to come. They want to come on their own terms. They want to feel appreciated, the idea that their first day of employment is their chance to show you they're worth it. It's the inverse. Now, their first day of employment, is your opportunity to show them that it's worth coming back, and it could not be more true now than ever before. And listen to candidates. They vote with their feet. They just don't come back If it's not a good experience. And we hear it all the time. How do we get them to come back? Engage with them, treat them well. Treat them like you would treat anybody else. Show them that what they're there for is important, that they're important and, more importantly, that, if they did well, that you want them to come back and they will, but they're not going to settle.

Josiah: 18:11

Let's maybe talk about some of the underlying reasons for this, because I think sometimes people say that in hospitality sometimes it feels a little bit like platitudes of treating people well, because maybe some folks don't really understand what it's like to be that person who's looking at opportunities and, from your perspective, what are the other options that these people have? I think I've heard some people talk about Amazon delivery, and instead of being yelled at by a guest, I might be listening to a podcast and outside on my own schedule. So we've heard about Amazon maybe being an alternate path that hotel companies are up against. Need to think about. What are some of the options, other options that you see your candidates considering relative to hospitality?

Matt: 18:55

That's a great question, so I guess I'll talk about it in two-fold. So hospitality alone, there are multiple options. It's not just hotel work. You can work for a catering company, you can work in corporate dining, you can work concessions, you can work retail. You can work in large venues, stadiums. Hospitality space alone has a plethora of options Retail, supply chain type work. These are all. So you mentioned Amazon, but it's not just limited to Amazon, any of the large supply chain, any of the large distribution fulfillment type businesses. They offer similar wage type work that you don't necessarily need an overwhelming amount of previous experience to thrive in, and they are pulling a lot of people from the space, a lot. Now, one thing that those companies do well as someone who works with those businesses also is that they have spent years on their first day employee and candidate engagement, so they keep them coming back. So I think a lot of times people may look at the space hospitality versus industrial type work which I guess is what that would all fall under as being two very, very different worlds to work in. But it's not. The work is similar, it's fast-paced, it's important, they're both paid well. They're going to go where they feel the most appreciated Again, where they feel they have a next day, that they feel like the next day is going to be as good or better than it was today. And you're talking about options just in general. On our platform you can go on every day and see hundreds, if not thousands, of shifts available in your city every day. The options literally are almost unlimited for you. You don't have to settle and people don't. And it's interesting to watch this shift from someone who's been doing this for 15 years, where it was always very much about the availability of getting the job. Getting the job was the hardest part and then you had to hold on to it. It's so much the opposite right now that it's hard to explain which is you have to hold on to me. I am the precious commodity here, not the job, and some people are embracing that really well and we watch them just crush it every day. We watch them with 95% return rates on their employees week over week, and are they doing anything magical? No, not really. They're treating people well, they're running really strong concurrent cultures and people feel valued. I mean, we work with one major hotel management group and they put a very large focus last year on first day experience and one of the things that they did was they implemented. It's like a scorecard and the supervisors, the leaders, the directors of each department within the hotel use the scorecard with the employee on their first day and the employee is rating their experience with the director, with the job, what the expectations were, did the job description meet what I was doing today? It's like a five question scorecard. It seems very elementary, it doesn't seem like something that would be overly difficult to do, but when you ask the employees that were coming in for their first day, it's very rare that they sit down with the director of their department or their manager, their supervisor, and they say please rate us on these five criteria for your first day. The amount of people that were coming back, requesting to come back or choosing to prioritize their shifts as the next ones, was the highest in the market. Wow yeah, basic, they care, they care yeah.

Josiah: 22:33

It's basic, but it shows care, and I appreciate you sharing that example, but also talking about candidates seeing hundreds or thousands of opportunities, because I think the traditional mentality and I even felt this a bit as a hiring manager, to be honest is that I have this job, it's this amazing opportunity, you're going to be lucky if you get it, which is somewhat true, but it's also, I think, probably even more true, especially now that the person working has a lot of power, and so I see people that are building amazing teams go into sales mode when they're recruiting and if there's a good candidate, they're selling the benefits, they're communicating all the advantages, they're being very thoughtful about your first moments working on the team, and then it's also about retention, I think, which is what you're getting at. It's not just about that first shift or that first day, but you have to actually deliver on that promise. So sell, but have the goods to deliver on it.

Matt: 23:29

Yeah, I always say that you can't have a great first week if you only have a first day. If you don't come back for a second day, there's no good week, there is no good month, and we poll and survey are upshifters people on our platform. Some will say hey, I've been working at the same place for two or three weeks. I didn't have a great first experience with them, so when something else comes up, I'm probably going to move. That's a real problem. I mean, I know we talk about first day experience a lot, but the first day resonates for a long period of time and, while some people may stick it out so they can find something else, they're ultimately not engaged. Right, they're not going to be reliable, predictable employees, and it's something that's, in my opinion, pretty easily rectifiable. But you're right, hiring managers have gone into kind of sales mode and I always kind of liken it to almost like online dating. Right, if someone doesn't like what you have, they swipe one way they don't give you a reason why they don't come back and that's it. And I think that's the piece that hiring managers. When I speak to them, I think that's the biggest eyeopening piece of it. I sat in a room full of HR professionals in this space, probably about six months ago, and they all asked why we can't retain people. That was like the number one question why can't we retain people? Why can't we retain people? And my answer was well, they don't need you. You need them, but you both need each other and you have to meet in the middle. And the people who are meeting in the middle are thriving and the people who are trying to put the new hiring into the old box are failing over and over and over again, and it's interesting to watch all the faces go oh, they don't need us. It's like, well, they do need you, but not to the extent that you think they have plenty of options. Your competitors are hiring too, and most of the time in this space, when you're pulling people in, you're pulling them from another space, like you may not necessarily be pulling them from a competing hotel or competing franchise that you're working against in the area, but you're competing them against the Amazons, against the other similar skilled level work, so making them a priority.

Josiah: 25:40

Yeah, that's what we're talking about is to just look at what is happening now, right, and how do we need to adjust and how do we be competitive? Because I think in hospitality business we get so obsessed with our competition, right, it's all about comp sets, all how am I doing versus them? But that's not the comparison that a lot of employees today are thinking of. It's all my options, right, and so you got to look at the whole picture and everything out there.